Steve (00:00.599)
Okay, so Kristen Good so good But it didn't do it didn't do a countdown by the way the I Was fiddling with my thing. Okay, beautiful good. So I'll do a formal intro but before we do gentlemen I just want to make sure that we are all good about today's objective and the objective is to really have truly a meaningful relaxed conversation

I'm gonna guide it. will interject at times where I'll just literally put up my finger and go, you know, and I'll do my thing as to if I feel that I need to redirect a little bit or not even just to make sure that we get some further depth on something important you were saying. So is there anything that you feel from the outset that is super important for you to cover in today's conversation that's on your mind, where, you know, sports, obviously most disruptive period in its history.

A lot going on in the ad world, And ultimately, the goal is to somehow have a meaning relationship with the consumer. And that's why we're all here, and see, you know, using the anchor of the Super Bowl as a discussion, okay? You don't have to be an expert in everything. We just have to have an opinion and talk it through. And it's not live, so we can edit out anything and everything, okay? So I'll do an intro and...

Tom Carroll (01:13.508)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Robichaud (01:18.144)
Got it.

Steve (01:28.086)
Let me just get one thing. And Kristen, you're still, are you still there or you're not there? Okay. No, no, it's all good. So I just want to make sure that you have, uh, just give me one quick second. have Tom's thing. Give me one quick sec. I understand. No, no, no, no, no. It's all good. So, and just want to, you know, and at times, just so you guys know, there will be a time at some point.

Michael Robichaud (01:30.689)
interesting

Steve (01:55.607)
some moments where you're going to see some numbers on your screen from Riverside. That's very normal. Just ignore them. And unless Kristen intervenes, it means that everything is being recorded perfectly. And at the end, it does a download. So just be aware that that's that's kind of how that works. So don't so then maybe you don't want to say goodbye. OK. OK.

or anything. we do that, then it stops the upload. OK. So just bear with me one sec. And I'm just about there. The thing is too, you might see on your screen while you are recording, it might get a little pixelated.

Don't worry about it, just keep going forward. It is being recorded properly on the back end, but don't think that it's a mistake. It's working great. OK. So just give me one last moment. And Tom, I see from your LinkedIn, let me just, I was on your LinkedIn earlier, and I want to make sure I do this properly.

Just give me one second. Is Sure, Okay, perfect. We love that. Okay, it shows here that you the last one was an internship at shy of day. Just like, okay.

Tom Carroll (03:21.012)
I haven't updated my LinkedIn in a very long time. For a lot of reasons.

Michael Robichaud (03:35.853)
Yeah.

Tom Carroll (03:36.996)
In the Avro, exactly.

Steve (03:43.135)
no, that's fine. I have, I have some good stuff. Interesting. Interesting.

Tom Carroll (03:46.692)
I spent most of my career at Shiaite and then when TBWA and we merged and I ended up CEO at TBWA, but I always kept Shiaite on the name because that's where I grew up as a kid.

Steve (04:09.366)
We can just try not to go too close to the camera. Meaning sometimes we naturally kind of move forward. Just try and keep the cognizant of just sitting up straight, looking at that camera and not necessarily wiggling around too much. Tom, is there any way you can back up a little bit from the camera or is there a wall directed at you? There's a wall, but I can back up. I'm just trying to see how I want you guys to have a

Tom Carroll (04:14.99)
Right.

Steve (04:39.273)
I can sure Okay, excellent so Tom just a quick quick question on we're all good at Kristen. Thank you brand equity partners. Is that something you'd like noted?

Tom Carroll (05:08.376)
Yeah, that's what I'm doing now. What I do with Brand Equity is startups, basically, I've done some projects, but basically it's for small company startups. tend to focus on sustainability just because it's fun and it's something interesting to do. And that's how I keep getting more more projects. And I work with all my old buddies from creative people.

Steve (05:09.246)
That's what doing now. What I do with brand equity is...

Basically, I've done some projects, but basically it's for small companies, startups. tend to focus on sustainability just because it's fun and it's something interesting to do. And that's how I keep getting more more projects. And I work with all my old buddies, creative people, strategy people, data people, media people. We bring in these, we do these projects, we get them done really fast and it's a lot of fun.

Tom Carroll (05:35.916)
strategy people, data people, media people. We bring in these, we do these projects, we get them done really fast and it's a lot of fun. It keeps me busy. It's not a full-time thing at all, but I tend to keep getting projects every year, two or three every year, and it's fun.

Steve (05:54.421)
Beautiful beautiful. Okay. Good. Good. Good. Good. Good. So, yeah

Steve (06:05.046)
that's you'll manage let me just come here okay we're gonna kick this off great you want me to do the countdown no all good okay might take me one or thank you thank you and michael we all call you michael robachaud but i understand the proper pronunciation is robo-shaw robo-show

Michael Robichaud (06:08.632)
example.

Tom Carroll (06:24.793)
Thank you.

Michael Robichaud (06:32.258)
Over show, like TV show.

Steve (06:34.772)
Like RoboShow. I'm glad I learned that after how many months of working with you. Excellent. Excellent.

Michael Robichaud (06:39.566)
There you go.

Steve (06:44.51)
Excellent. Okay.

What a pleasure it is on this week's transaction report to have two leaders in marketing advertising, veterans of the industry. And that is none other than Tom Carroll and Michael Robichard. Tom, your history in the advertising world as CEO of obviously Shia Day. It was acquired by TW.

TBWA worldwide and you maintained a transformative leadership in the industry. You run a group today, Brand Equity Partners, and I should mention, which I did not know your relationship or one of them to sports, is you're the co-chair of the Lou Gehrig Sports Award that was founded to benefit those obviously.

Tom Carroll (07:13.396)
PBWA.

Steve (07:37.239)
that are afflicted and in honor of your father, Thomas G. Carroll Jr., who was diagnosed with ALS in 69. And it's very meaningful to know that you have this type of relationship, very formidable one.

That's very very meaningful to the community at large welcome to the show Michael Robichaud obviously heading up from a brand marketing standpoint a leader in the sports marketing space at sprint next tell from about six seven eight years and then 15 years at a very significant role at MasterCard When you left just a year ago as head of global sponsorship for the brand and I want to welcome you both to the transaction report today

Michael Robichaud (08:24.334)
Great, thank you.

Steve (08:24.576)
Great, thank you. So it's an interesting nexus that we've come together at a really neat time, guys. Really neat time. The world is exploding. The human race is debating its existential continuity. AI every day is making headline news. And in just about 10 days, we're going to experience the Super Bowl, which seems to set aside all Ls and trials and tribulations of humanity for a moment.

Tom Carroll (08:25.486)
Howdy.

Steve (08:54.455)
and creates, if you will, an oasis in the desert where humanity can focus on some really meaningful, competitive aspects of the human race that's beautiful to see. It's unifying, it's the most universal, I would say, connective tissue that we have country to country, which is sport. And in this sports expression, not the largest, but certainly one of the biggest in the world, is that 120 million United States audience

that will congregate to watch the Super Bowl, ranging from Arden fans to families and frankly, folk who don't even watch football, but will get together for the experience, for an experiential, meaningful social experience that takes place. And one of the big elements to that is this uncanny, unprepared or unscripted element of the Super Bowl experience, which is really the advertising experience.

what it's become not even a cottage industry, it's become a metropolis within a metropolis. So with that said, let me start by asking you the obvious.

We just learned yesterday that Fox, the host broadcaster, will for the first time be charging $8 million for a 30 second commercial spot. Let's see if we can without again, I'm not interested yet in going deep into what our personal opinions are, worthwhile, not worthwhile, but what would be the fundamental metrics that you and I should look like if we are brand managers? We are Michael Robichaud, if you will, from years past.

and all the other Michael Robuchars who are stewards of budgets and they have a decision to make. I've got 8 million to spend on that 30 second spot. I believe 10 of the 72 advertisers will spend that amount in 2025. And we have about another 6, 7, 8 million in creative. So I might be all in at 15 million. Help us if you will, Tom, in going through an analytics process.

Steve (11:03.698)
of you being called and we call you at your company today and we say, hey, help us out here. How do I know if this is worth it? What should I consider? What are the core variables metrics that I should look at to know if this placement for 30 seconds, I just do one ad, I'm all in at let's say 12 to 16 million. Help us take us through that process, on how we would make decisions.

Tom Carroll (11:25.93)
Well, I think it's always been difficult to track the effectiveness of a Super Bowl ad unless you're a Budweiser who can see their sales report. think a lot of people in my experience, I mean, I probably have had over 50, 60 Super Bowl ads in my career and some made perfect sense why they were on the Super Bowl. Some

Steve (11:37.033)
see their sales report. think a lot of people in my experience I mean I probably have had over

Tom Carroll (11:50.84)
were purely came out of ego or came out of the fact that the budgets were so large that what was $3 million? It cost you $750,000 to produce a commercial and then $3 million. Well, if you're spending $75 million already during the year in advertising, what's $3 million for the Super Bowl? Plus, and if it's the right audience, know, when it's snack food, I had Snickers.

Steve (12:13.016)
if you're the right audience, know, when it's snack food, I had Snickers. It was a perfect audience for Snickers, you know, and they had a good budget. It was a perfect audience for, I mean, we were on Apple, was my time, we only on once. That commercial that everybody knows, 1984, it only ran once and it was never run again. And it has more viewership than anything. I just think that it's,

Tom Carroll (12:18.824)
It was a perfect audience for Snickers, you know, and they had a good budget. It was a perfect audience for, I mean, were on Apple was my client. were only on once that commercial that everybody knows 1984. It only ran once and it was never run again. And it has more viewership than anything. just think that it's, I,

Steve (12:42.889)
I think if you're in it, you have a big enough budget, have a broad enough consumer base, you understand who's watching the Super Bowl, although it's millions and millions of people. It's a type of event that is, I think some people around there, if you don't do great creative, there's no reason. Yeah, it's a waste of money because nobody's gonna remember it. So I think the metrics are, is your creative good enough? And people, I think a lot of people get on and some flats with it stuff and they say,

Tom Carroll (12:43.084)
I think if you're in it, you have a big enough budget, you have a broad enough consumer base, you understand who's watching the Super Bowl, although it's millions and millions of people, it's a type of event that is, I think some people around there, if you don't do great creative, there's no reason to be on there. It's a waste of money because nobody's gonna remember it. So I think the metrics are, is your creative good enough? And people lie, I a lot of people get out and do some flat-footed stuff and they say, wait,

We just want to get our message out there and think of how many eyeballs are going to see this commercial. I don't think that works in the Super Bowl. You either do something that's memorable and talked about or you're wasting your money.

Steve (13:12.792)
We just want to get our message out there and there's many eyeballs are going to see this commercial. I don't think that works in the Super Bowl. You either do something that's memorable and talked about or you're wasting your money. So follow up on that when you look at brands that literally were mocked their memes about them. They just didn't work as you said it fell flat or actually it actually was so bad that it became so talked about.

Michael Robichaud (13:39.384)
you

Tom Carroll (13:41.219)
here.

Steve (13:41.673)
and you being a CEO of one of the largest agencies in the world, it's a question, I don't know if Michael has it, but I do wanna ask you, because I know a lot of us as lay people who are not inside the creative process within the agency have it. Is it such that the agency, with their own cognizance, have designed an ad that's so bad that it's almost funny, that it's bad but funny?

Michael Robichaud (14:02.136)
Thank

Tom Carroll (14:06.2)
I don't

Steve (14:06.644)
And you know a lot of people are gonna take the Mickey out of it and therefore the agency designed this. I giving you too much credit or it's just that the agencies don't miss the mark?

Tom Carroll (14:16.74)
You know, I have one. I'd have to bring up, we did a Snickers ad, which almost got us fired. But thank God, the president of Mars saved us. And it was so clumsy and so inappropriate that it got talked about beyond belief. But I don't think it did anything good for Snickers, to be honest.

Steve (14:20.15)
You

Steve (14:23.766)
We did a Snickers ad, which almost got us fired. Thank God, the President Mars saved us. And it was so clumsy and so inappropriate that it got talked about beyond belief. But I don't think it did anything good for Snickers. Was this the one where you threw it into the pool or am I conflating that with Caddyshack? No, it was two guys who they were mechanics.

Tom Carroll (14:47.684)
No, it was two guys who they were mechanics and they were fixing a car and it inferred that they were gay. So it was just so clumsy and inappropriate. But I don't know if it, I don't think it added any value to the brand to be honest with you, but we had done such great work for

Michael Robichaud (14:48.14)
Thank

Steve (14:53.367)
and they were fixing a car and it would infer that they were gay. So it was just so funny and inappropriate. But I don't know if it, I don't think it added any value to the brand of young. What do think about it? We've done such great work for.

Tom Carroll (15:17.132)
Mars over the years with Skittles and Starburst and all the other, they trusted us. And then after that commercial, we had a different layer of level of trust.

Steve (15:17.686)
Mars over the years with Skittles and Starburst and all the other, they trusted us. And then after that commercial, we had a different layer, level of trust. So I have an obligation just to pursue that for a moment. Because it always reminds me when I was a kid, and I'd go to a movie with my folks. And I said, how did that get past anybody?

Michael Robichaud (15:29.184)
you

Tom Carroll (15:41.986)
Yeah.

Steve (15:42.077)
a focus group and either produce, how did they put their money into a movie that I knew within the first eight minutes and so did the other audience members. It just wasn't gonna work as a film and it was wasting all of our time. So I wanna ask you just again, it's an interesting insight that we don't usually get. So but your creative team is presenting that to the client. They approve that ad.

Tom Carroll (16:01.944)
Well, you know, it's funny when you ask that question. know, people would come to Shyaday for one reason, creative, because our philosophy was great creative makes five look like 25. So because that's the beauty of creative, because you get awareness and you get...

Steve (16:07.862)
When you ask that question, know, people would come to Shia Day for one reason, creative, because our philosophy was.

Great creator makes five look like 25. So because that's the beauty of creating, because you get awareness and you get engagement and you get all the things that a brand wants with a good piece of creative. that's, you know, it was risky, you know, take Apple, example, we did the commercial 1984, which is an incredible, and the next year we did a commercial in the Superbowl called Lemmings.

Tom Carroll (16:25.996)
engagement and you get all the things that a brand wants with a good piece of creative. So that's, you know, it was risky, you know, take Apple, for example, we did the commercial in 1984, which is incredible. And the next year we did a commercial in the Superbowl called Lemmings, which the board wanted to fire us. They were so pissed off about the commercial.

Michael Robichaud (16:35.394)
Thank

Steve (16:48.809)
which the board wanted to fire us. They were so distraught about the commercial. And it wasn't but a year later that we got fired and Steve Jobs got fired. Now I don't think it was that commercial, but Jayshied showed me the commercial a week before and I said, don't run that out. He said, shut up. know what you're talking about. wouldn't know who creative, you know, I'm telling you that's a poor, do not run that out. Do not run that out.

Tom Carroll (16:55.908)
And it wasn't, but a year later that we got fired and Steve Jobs got fired. Now I don't think it was that commercial, but have my, Jay Shi showed me the commercial a week before and I said, don't run that out. And he said, oh, shut up. don't know what you're talking about. You would know good creative. If you know, I said, I'm telling you that's a horrible, do not run that out. Do not run that. And I never brought it up again, but because he got us in deep trouble, but.

Michael Robichaud (17:13.038)
Thank

Steve (17:18.792)
And I never brought it up again, but because you got us in deep trouble, but it's always a risk. mean, it's a double-edged sword. want to create creative because you want that engagement. You want to create creative because you want to talk about it. But sometimes it can go, it can backfire on you. I guess if it was me and I was in a closet, you know, a lot of the car ads to me. Really? I mean, I just think that now because television is so much, you know, the viewership is

Tom Carroll (17:22.916)
It's always a risk. I mean, it's a double-edged sword. You want great creative because you want that engagement. You want great creative because you want talk value. But sometimes it can backfire on you. But I guess if it was me and I was in a client's... A lot of the car ads, to me, really, I mean, I just think that now because television is so much, the viewership is so low, you

Steve (17:47.795)
So look, you know, to get that one event that has that much volume, that much people, guess they think it's worthwhile, but I feel like a car ads on, you know, they're never gonna be that creative. They're never gonna be that, you know, they're gonna be feature driven and they're gonna be, you know, it's their kind of formula. That doesn't make any sense. When you look at a company like T-Mobile, who I really admire because I think they do great creative. I think they're very engaged.

Tom Carroll (17:49.028)
To get that one event that has that much volume and that much people, I guess they think it's worthwhile, but I feel like a car ads on, they're never going to be that creative. They're never going to be that, they're going to be feature driven and they're going to be, it's the kind of formulaic. That doesn't make any sense to me. And then you look at a company like T-Mobile, who I really admire because I think they do great creative. I think they're very engaged with the customer.

Steve (18:17.688)
Excellent Michael you actually made a decision to sponsor a Super Bowl ad you actually had a halftime show when you were at Nextel and Obviously with MasterCard you guys were at least a nine-figure sponsor of sports Between your rights fees and your activation money spent So just take this methodically if you will so you have Tom on the on the you know executive leadership of creative

Tom Carroll (18:17.794)
That makes sense if it's good creative.

Steve (18:45.975)
You have you as a quote unquote prospective client of Tom's. How did you make a decision that it was worth your investment as a team to either sponsor the halftime show and with you being on the sponsorship side, I'm gonna ask you a two pronger. Did you have a close alliance with your creative advertising teams to sync

Michael Robichaud (19:05.07)
Mm-hmm.

Steve (19:13.706)
the experience, so was a holistic experience. When you made the decision on, let's hone in on just the issue of the halftime show. When you're engaged, how much, why did you decide to sponsor the halftime show in I believe approximately 2007, eight, before Pepsi came in? And I'd like to understand how much alliance was there with the creative advertising team?

to then compliment the quote unquote sponsorship team in supporting the message so that there was this duality or if you will a synergy that will take place between activation around an event and then the actual advertising that will take place when we're quote unquote not engaged with the activity on the pitch, on the field, on the court or quote unquote during the entertainment session.

Michael Robichaud (20:04.546)
Well, I can tell you it was definitely one of the bigger, more stressful things I've ever seen sort of our unit team go through. We did it back when the Sprint Nextel merger had occurred. So it was a moment in time and history for our brands where we had merged, we were launching a new company, and we needed to really make a big push for this new brand, this new merger of the two companies. So the NFL obviously fit perfectly at the time of year because we launched in right around Labor Day.

Steve (20:06.806)
stressful things I've ever seen sort of our unit team go through. We did it back when the Sprint Nextel merger had occurred. So it was a moment in time and history for our brands where we had merged, we were launching a new company, and we needed to really make a big push for this new brand, this new merger of the two companies. So the NFL obviously fit perfectly at the time of year because we launched in right around Labor Day. Is that feedback me?

Michael Robichaud (20:33.932)
Is that feedback me? I'm really hearing it, sorry.

Steve (20:39.009)
So you know what give me one sec Kristen, why don't you come in for a moment? This is the beauty of not live So it's wonderful and and I'm so far so everything is excellent Kristen if you don't mind joining us one Michael sounds very tinny Are you hearing that as well Tom?

Michael Robichaud (20:39.32)
Can you not hear it? Sure.

Michael Robichaud (20:44.525)
Exactly.

Steve (21:07.485)
Yeah, so Michael I'm sorry you have to experience that and Right now you see so why don't you turn

Michael Robichaud (21:16.274)
I'll just turn my speaker down so like now I can't hear myself because I turned my speaker down so it's better that way because I can hear through your it sounds like I'm hearing it through your speaker yeah yeah but that's okay I can't you can't even see me do it but I can turn my speaker down so when I'm talking I'm only

Steve (21:34.899)
So, Vane, I took my glasses off. you're fine. Also, too, this is great. yeah, see, have... Is it Jabra speaker? Yeah, my Jabra speaker. Got it. So...

Michael Robichaud (21:40.544)
I took my glasses off.

Thanks,

Michael Robichaud (21:52.558)
Am I job or speaker?

Michael Robichaud (22:09.646)
Fine, don't want to go through that whole thing. Like I said, I can hear it, so I'll just turn it down so I don't get distracted. right. I got it, all right.

Steve (22:15.823)
Okay, we'll carry on Michael you got a system, thank you thank Kristen. you very much so

Steve (22:27.734)
I heard a couple beeps. So I just wanted to make sure. Thank I don't know whose it is, but it's fine. I turned off my notifications on my computer, You know what? I think it was mine, but I don't know how to show it. No worries. not, Tom, it's... I don't think I'll get many more. We take responsibility for that. At TTR, that's all on us. I don't know. Okay. Good. So...

Michael Robichaud (22:29.005)
I'm fine.

Tom Carroll (22:32.804)
You know what? I think it was mine, but I don't know how to shut it off.

I don't think I'll get any more, but then I don't want to. It's, it's my, I don't know how to get rid of it. I apologize. The least technical person you've ever met.

Steve (22:51.463)
Michael do you remember where you were Michael actually? Please do know what the question was?

Michael Robichaud (22:53.678)
We're start back.

Yeah, I'm just going to start with the answer again because I, okay. Yes.

Michael Robichaud (23:06.67)
So for Sprint and Nexel, was an interesting moment in history because we had just launched the merged company, both of Nexel and Sprint coming together in September of 2005. So the NFL season fit perfectly to as a major platform, big, audience. And the halftime show that year happened to be the Rolling Stones. But for us, we had been a long time halftime partner with CBS. And then as we moved into the NFL partnership, it was a good fit. It was a time that we really wanted to get this brand out there.

Steve (23:06.934)
So for Sprint Nexel, it an interesting moment in history because we had just launched the merch company, both of Nexel and Sprint coming together in September of 2005. So the NFL season fit perfectly to, as you know, major platform, big huge audience. And the halftime show that year happened to be the Rolling Stones. But for us, we had been a long time halftime partner.

the CBS and then as we moved into the NFL partnership, it was a good fit. was a time that we really wanted to get this brand out there and kind of fight the big fight. So we had a new company to talk about, we had new products to talk about. There was a change in time where phones were actually starting to be able to stream. So it was a time that we...

Michael Robichaud (23:35.874)
kind of fight the big fight. So we had a new company to talk about, we had new products to talk about, there was a change in time where phones were actually starting to be able to stream. So it was a time that we thought was good to really go big. We have Chai Day as our partner back then and they were relatively new with us. So I was fortunate to kind of be part of that process. And I can tell you, I think everybody really stresses about it because it's a...

Steve (23:47.767)
thought was good to really go big. actually we have shy day as our partner back then and they were relatively new with us. So I was fortunate to kind of be part of that process. And I can tell you, think everybody really stresses about it because it's it's very visible. Everyone sees it. They know the cost. And, you know, say any CMO at that point wants to do a great job. They want to they have a responsibility to spend that money and do it wisely. So they put a lot of time and care into it. So what what type of

Michael Robichaud (24:02.862)
It's very visible. Everyone sees it. They know the cost and you know, I'd say any CMO at that point wants to do a great job They want to they have a responsibility to spend that money and do it wisely So they put a lot of time and care into it

Steve (24:17.72)
what type of comparative analysis takes place? mean, Tom made the point that perhaps I would have if you had. Test one two, one two. Okay, beautiful. So, so Michael, it's very interesting. Well, you know, to Tom's point about brands having so much money that I would have defaulted to his comment as well, which is.

Tom Carroll (24:21.814)
I can't hear you, Steve, for some reason.

Michael Robichaud (24:28.044)
I can hear you.

Tom Carroll (24:29.953)
Okay, now I can.

Steve (24:44.587)
You know, we have such large budgets. You know, I was just speaking with one of my colleagues about Procter & Gamble's present budget of $9 billion for 2024. Ad spend, $9 billion. So to go and put in 15 million with creative and cost of acquisition of airtime, it's not exactly gonna break the piggy bank.

So with your good cells, do you go through a comparative analysis as a senior executive at a major company? Are you looking and saying we've got, let's call it 15 million to spend or in the case of, this is going back almost 15, 16, 17 years ago, the numbers of Apple Music Today who took over from Pepsi three years ago. I Pepsi was playing supposedly, allegedly 15 million in rights fees. Apple is allegedly paying 50 million in rights fees for the halftime show.

So back then when you guys were involved, it's allegedly somewhere around, I think, six or seven million. I forget the number. I have it here written down somewhere. But whatever that number is, it's not important. What process do you go through professionally, beyond the fact that there are people who passionate about the Super Bowl as an entity, as a cultural entity, an iconic entity? Can you take us through that internal boardroom command center of what we might hear you guys talk about?

when it comes down to should we do it or not?

Michael Robichaud (26:11.246)
Well, yeah, it was definitely a lot of conversations and I think most of it just revolved around the company strategy. mean, think any good advertising always starts out with what's the business? What are you trying to accomplish? And for us at that time, we were up against the two largest companies. We were third and fourth in the industry coming together. And so we needed to get out and make our name. I mean, literally make our name and try to punch really big and go at

Steve (26:20.682)
What are you trying to accomplish? And for us at that time, we were up against the two largest companies. were third and fourth in the industry coming together.

And so we needed to get out and make our name. I mean, literally make our name and try to punch really big and go at our biggest competitors. Get momentum, get that energy going as a new basic kind of this new entity and we're better to do that. I think for the other part was.

Michael Robichaud (26:41.25)
our biggest competitors, get momentum, get that energy going as a new, basic kind of this new entity and we're better to do that. I think for the other part was the notion that you could stream the halftime show, what was fun for us and I think any product, it always helps if you have some kind of relevance. so fans were actually able to download the halftime show on their phone following the event and that was new. mean, that was brand new back then. So I think it wasn't just about

Steve (26:53.399)
the notion that you could stream the halftime show, know, what was fun for us and I think any product that always helps if you have some kind of relevance. And so fans were actually able to download the halftime show on their phone following the event and that was new. That was brand new back then. So I think it wasn't just about, we need a moment in time. It was like, we actually have a story to tell. The industry is changing and we're gonna tell you about it right now on the biggest stage with arguably one of the biggest bands in history in the Rolling Stones.

Michael Robichaud (27:10.712)
hey, we need a moment in time. was like, actually have a story to tell. The industry is changing and we're gonna tell you about it right now on the biggest stage with arguably one of the biggest bands in history in the Rolling Stones. So for us, was, again, I think we go back, it was a moment in time that we wanted to take advantage of and all those pieces coming together.

Steve (27:23.352)
So for us, was, again, I think we go back, was a moment in time that we wanted to take advantage of and all those pieces coming together. And when it was over, when it was over, when you're sitting in the war room and saying, how did we do? What would be the factors we would think about if we were Sprint Nextel? And again, your brand's a bit different than many brands in the advertising space, because particularly if we're B2B or we're some type of service oriented product.

It's not as demonstrably measurable as, for example, what we just saw a month ago with the news about Pop Tarts Bowl and the fact that they had increased volume by 20 million Pop Tarts as a result of their college bowl game sponsorship from a comparative analysis of what took place and literally very scientific comparative. So with you, what would we hear about? Why did it work or not work? And what could have been better for the brand?

Michael Robichaud (28:20.904)
We looked at it from a number of factors. The first, obviously, was the creative. How well received were we? Did people like us? Did people like the creative? Did they take something away from it? Did they know that there's this new business out there? And then I would say in wireless, there was a fair number of measurements. Again, we had a CMO that worked both sides of the brain and was very analytical with it. We had a data group. I learned a little bit about database marketing or database analysis. But we could tell the traffic into our stores, literally just how our sales went.

Steve (28:21.078)
We looked at it from a number of factors. The first, obviously, was the creative. How well received were we? Did people like us? Did people like the creative? Did they take something away from it? Did they know that there's this new business out there? And then I would say in wireless, there was a fair number of measurements. Again, we had a CMO that worked both sides of the brain and was very analytical with it. We had a data group. learned a little bit about

database marketing or database analysis, but we could tell the traffic into our stores, the literally just how our sales went, what experience we're having with the business customers. And again, have to think back in time, Nextel was a fairly B2B service where Sprint was consumer. So the merger coming together and having both of those pieces and did it make sense? Do people understand it? But really becoming top of mind, know, having maybe people had been dismissing us because we were, if you're a consumer, didn't think

Michael Robichaud (28:50.446)
what experience we're having with the business customers. And again, you have to think back in time, Nextel was a fairly B2B service where Sprint was consumer. So the merger coming together and having both of those pieces and did it make sense? Did people understand it? But really becoming top of mind, know, having maybe people had been dismissing us because we were, if you're a consumer, didn't think of Nextel because that's, you know, for the business. And if you were a business, you didn't think of Sprint. But we needed people to

Steve (29:12.722)
next step because that's you know for the business and if you were a business you didn't think a sprint but we needed people to kind of stop take a look at us think for a second and make maybe a new decision and I think we felt that was very successful that time now did we need it three or four more years which we didn't do anyway probably would have been a different discussion but that one big moment was was key and you did for how long we just did the one year so tom when you look at one-offs in our world as sports marketers

Michael Robichaud (29:18.83)
kind of stop, take a look at us, think for a second and make maybe a new decision. And I think we felt that was very successful at that time. Now, do we need three or four more years, which we didn't do anyway? Probably would have been a different discussion, but that one big moment was key.

We just did the one year.

Steve (29:41.719)
We are, for decades, counseling brands. It's very hard to reap what you want to reap in just one shot, right? A moon landing. Please go right ahead.

Tom Carroll (29:53.258)
Yeah.

No, I just think to Michael's point, you have one shot at introducing yourself when you're a new product. You don't have a ton of time. And I think that if you think about announcing this merger and this one company, that made, as Michael said, all these things came together at the same time, right? Let's take one big shot, a proper introduction.

Steve (30:10.28)
If you think about

Tom Carroll (30:26.55)
of ourselves and it worked. And the creative was great. I loved the creative. mean, I didn't get all the data afterwards, but we got great accolades for the creative. So we felt like we were winners.

Steve (30:39.694)
You know, me it seems like a very legitimate

point, case specific, it's really what most of us didn't do growing up, particularly as we go through many of our careers and unlike perhaps you Tom and Michael where you might have had a mentor in a large corporate setting, for a lot of folk who are in the scrappy side on an agency side, don't sweat it. For a lot of folk who are on the agency side or in particularly boutique agency where you're an entrepreneur.

Tom Carroll (30:47.694)
Yeah.

Steve (31:11.936)
What you forget is that KPIs of brands can be very, very nuanced and short-term. And it's just part of an evolving narrative about the brand's evolution and the relationship with its consumer that, you know what, that was a really important contribution of what Michael did. And it didn't need that type of capital intensive spend the next time.

Tom Carroll (31:18.819)
Yeah.

Steve (31:37.557)
because it was supported by far more engagement. Going back to the holistic side of the advertising commitment, did you have all the guns out above and beyond the halftime show for what the network was committed from an obligation standpoint of what you got in benefits of sponsorship?

Were you doing a multimodal engagement? you seeing all throughout? Was this your big spend that we then would have seen all throughout newspapers and magazines and then the burgeoning, growing digital space? It was as all in as we could be. And part of why we didn't have that moment in time, that one year of the halftime show for the Super Bowl, we still had our media buy on CBS throughout the year for the NFL, the following year.

Michael Robichaud (32:12.078)
It was as all in as we could be and you know part of why we may have had that moment in time that one year of the halftime show for the Super Bowl we still had our media buy on CBS throughout the year for the NFL the following year we saw the number of NFL teams we sponsored we've still sponsored the league so I think we had that kind of consistent storyline with NFL fans and that was just kind of a bump up for the halftime show but leading up into the game that year it was in retail I mean working with the Rolling Stones to get actual

Steve (32:24.08)
We saw the number of NFL teams we sponsored. We still sponsored the league. So I think we had that kind of consistent storyline with NFL fans and that was just kind of a bump up for the halftime show. But leading up into the game that year, it was in retail, I mean, working with Rolling Stones to get actual imagery into the stores to attract attention. Retail was still relatively new for wireless. We'll kind of take it for granted now, but that hadn't been around all that long where people would go in and do that.

Michael Robichaud (32:41.386)
imagery into into stores to attract attention. Retail was still relatively new for wireless. We all kind of take it for granted now, but that that hadn't been around all that long where people would go in and do that. Remember back then, think by then most people had gotten their first phone, but it wasn't that long before that the industry was still, you know, getting market share with new customers.

Steve (32:52.855)
have to remember back then, I by then most people had gotten their first phone, but it wasn't that long before that the industry was still getting market share with new customers. Tom, Michael said something so important. It's the essence of any type of event engagement, event sponsorship, whether it's sports, concerts, arts and entertainment, whatever it may be. And that is, he said about the integration of the Rolling Stones into the creative and driving ultimately point of sale activity.

Brands that are about to get involved in which are already committed. They've been sold out. There was a waiting list for this year's Super Bowl. Literally State Farm had to bail out. I just learned this today that State Farm actually is not going to maintain its commitment to the 2025 Super Bowl because of the LA wildfires.

and they felt it just was too sensitive to be out there as an insurance company. Yeah, interesting. So, but there was a waiting list to get on board. When you see, let me take a step back and frame this for you both and we'll get to your insights. You have 42 official partners of the NFL, and Michael. When you look at the fact that they're spending tens of millions of dollars in rights fees,

Tom Carroll (33:48.461)
Right?

Michael Robichaud (33:49.582)
Makes sense. Take a thought.

Steve (34:10.856)
And let's just say they go through the old benchmark. Let's call it even a one-to-one.

know, IEG years ago when they were at the top of their game used to say that, and I'm only rooting for a group like them, but at the end of the day, when you look at when they were in the early stages of the industry and they were having conferences and literally the go-to groups for anything on sponsorship and research, they used to say it should be a two to three spend per dollar on the dollar you spent on your sponsorship. Now again, complicated. If I have an athlete in my portfolio and I spent $100 on one,

another athlete was a goat and I spent $5,000 on that one. In this case, let's say I was spending $8 million on an athlete and $500,000 for another, the metrics are never going to be a standard two to three or a one to one. It's really case specific. But let's go to the 42 official partners of the NFL. I think in our research for last year and the year before, only seven or eight gentlemen put an ad on during the Super Bowl and referenced

I think three or four of them referenced their relationship with the NFL. When I was a young man, you would always hear a tagline, proud to be the official beer of the NFL, right? We heard that, it registered in our minds, and then something happened in the business.

It started to dissipate. It started to become almost a non-factor. Brands that spent tens of millions of dollars to gain admission to the NFL and other leagues chose not to, in this case for the Super Bowl, represent their connection to the biggest audience they'll have, the biggest day of the year, and had no reference or connectivity to their sponsorship of the NFL. Tom, let's start with you. Why? Why would they opt out?

Steve (36:05.898)
when they had the greatest opportunity to reflect that message.

Tom Carroll (36:07.812)
Because I think that anybody who understands their brand's character and how they want to be perceived, I just think that those things, there are so many official sponsors of so many events and sports that I just think it's noise. It doesn't have the value that it used to have. I think that it makes you look flat-footed.

Steve (36:26.29)
Events and sports that I just think it's noise. It doesn't have the value that it used to have I think that it makes you look flat-footed. It makes you look opportunistic I think it's just kind of it's getting creepy in that it doesn't you know add the value that you're not cool and I think that that's a and that's a good instinct I think that you know, whoever's managing that brand and whoever is the character that brand

Tom Carroll (36:35.716)
It makes you look opportunistic. think it's just kind of, it's getting creepy in that it doesn't, you know, add the value that you're not cool. And I think that that's a, and that's a gut instinct. think that, you know, whoever's managing that brand and whoever's the character of that brand, whoever the, you know, it's always a combination. Apple, for instance, is my favorite example because

Steve (36:56.137)
It's always a combination. Apple, instance, my favorite example because Lee Clow, who is the creative director at Chi-Fa, and Steve Jobs, were like this. So they always knew instinctually, apparently when we do show creative work, Jobs say, that's not us. Or Lee say, no, we're not doing that, that's not cool. So that brand for all those years that they worked together, and Apple just kept getting cooler and cooler and cooler.

Tom Carroll (37:01.988)
Lee Clow, who's the creative director at Chi-I-Tay and Steve Jobs, they were like this. So they always knew instinctually and inherently when we do show creative work, Jobs say, that's not us. Or a lead say, no, we're not doing that. That's uncool. Or so that brand for all those years that they worked together and Apple just kept getting cooler and cooler and cooler. It was more gunnistic. We never did any consumer research on Apple.

I mean, do now, Steve Jobs did not give two shits about consumer research. His whole feeling was they don't know what, consumers don't know what they need anyways. We'll tell, we'll show them what they need. And I think that that's, yeah. And I think that that's what happens with the sponsorships. Unless it's different. I handled the international Olympic committee for probably eight, 10 years. And

Steve (37:42.14)
Right it was it was a hundred percent inside out

with the sponsorships. I handle the international Olympic committee for probably eight, 10 years. I always found that completely different than any baseball, basketball. It was a completely different animal, the IOC. How you talked during the Olympics as an advertiser was completely different than how you would talk. You were talking to international audience. were talking to a big

Tom Carroll (37:58.976)
I always found that completely different than any baseball, basketball. It was a completely different animal, the IOC. And how you talked during the Olympics as an advertiser was completely different than how you would talk. You were talking to international audience, you were talking to a big... So I just think you either have good instincts about that stuff and you have to decide... Somebody has to be the one who decides how brave the...

Steve (38:18.552)
So I just think you either have good instincts about that stuff and you have to decide, somebody has to be the one who decides how brave, how flat-footed want to be. That'll drive an advertising agency crazy when you have a flat-footed client and all they want to do is flat-footed. Nobody buys right. People buy special. And if you're not special and your message isn't special, nobody cares.

Tom Carroll (38:28.708)
how flat-footed you want to be. That'll drive an advertising agency crazy when you have a flat-footed client and all they want to do is flat-footed. Nobody buys right. People buy special. And if you're not special and your message isn't special, nobody cares. And so I think that you instinctually have to sit there and say, you know what, that's just flat-footed and we're not getting anything.

Steve (38:48.455)
And so I think that instinctually have to sit there and say, know what, let's just flat foot and we're not getting anything. And I think back in the day, the tone was very much that, you you kind of earned it, right? That you were selected by the NFL to be their official partner.

Michael Robichaud (38:54.474)
And I think back in the day, the tone was very much that, you know, you kind of earned it, right? That you were selected by the NFL to be their official partner and have that kind of a reverse feel. And back, you know, that was a good while ago, but now the consumers are just so much smarter. Brands are smarter, right? We've been studying all this stuff for years and years and years. And the notion of being official,

Steve (39:05.888)
kind of reverse feel. back, you know, that was a good while ago, but now the consumers are just so much smarter, are smarter, right? We've been studying all this stuff for years and years and years. And the notion of being official, unless you've achieved some level of status, again, you're like Pepsi, Budweiser, these are big brands that people know of, but if you're growing category or something's like, wow, where did they come from? I didn't know they had gotten so big or, know,

Michael Robichaud (39:19.978)
Unless you've achieved some level of status, again, you're like Pepsi, Budweiser, these are big brands that people know, but if you're a growing category or something's like, wow, where did they come from? I didn't know they had gotten so big or a category. But one brand versus another who's official, who's not, consumers know you pay for that. So it's not like it makes you drink any better. You bought it.

Steve (39:35.785)
So but you know one one brand versus another who's official who's not consumers know you pay for that So it's not like it makes you get drinking better you bought it so so it seems to me I'm glad that you guys both believe we need for anyone who reflects the quote-unquote official status They need a good podiatrist, so I'm happy we got to a neat place in the discussion

that to me calls, and again, when I was referencing the official proud to be the official soft drink, obviously this is just a, if you will, a reference point to how to integrate what you've spent tens of millions of dollars on. Should it be a tagline that says proud to be, you that voice of the NFL? Not necessarily. And so I wanna make sure we're on the same page before we go into this with perhaps a little bit more Augusto.

Tom Carroll (40:21.635)
Right.

Steve (40:29.064)
Are you suggesting that when you say flat-footed, that in alliance with the official partnership they have, that they've spent tens of millions of dollars on an NFL relationship, and to integrate some aspect of the beauty of the NFL, its elite product, what's played on the gridiron, and somehow communicating that in an effective way in their creative during the Super Bowl,

Are you suggesting that also constitutes flat-footed communication?

Tom Carroll (41:04.696)
mean, it can, the best example of, know, Pepsi was always a sponsor of the Super Bowl forever and ever. We remember all the great ads that they did. Michael Jackson, did, you mean Joe Green and then of it. And then when we were managing Pepsi, they went from doing ads to sponsoring the halftime show. And I went, well, what happened? Why would you sponsor the halftime show?

Steve (41:05.334)
mean, it can, the best example of, know, Pepsi was always a sponsor of the Super Bowl

Mean Joe Green

Tom Carroll (41:31.66)
And I think the thinking back then was, if I can remember properly, was the whole dance craze came into, dance became a big deal, big thing online, big thing on dance, dance, dance. And I think Pepsi was smart enough to say, we're in the Super Bowl, but we want to sponsor the halftime because we want to sponsor music, we want to sponsor dance, we want to sponsor, we want to be more about creativity.

Steve (41:45.465)
And I think Pepsi was smart enough to say, we're in the Super Bowl, but we want to be in the, we want to sponsor the halftime because we want to sponsor music, we want to sponsor dance, we want to sponsor, we want to be more about creativity and that aspect of people's lives. That was the message, which I thought was really smart that they made that decision running just another ad in a Super Bowl versus owning the entertainment part of the

Tom Carroll (42:00.452)
and that aspect of people's lives. That was the message, which I thought was really smart that they made that decision. Running just another ad in a Super Bowl versus owning the entertainment part of the Super Bowl seemed like a really smart thing to do for Pepsi. And they did it for years and years and years. And it seemed to work and it seemed to be the right decision because that wasn't flat-footed. That was actually

an evolution of the brand, how the brand thought about itself.

Steve (42:34.108)
But what I want to do get to the heart of the idea that as a sponsor think about it guys when you're looking at you mentioned Mike Tom your your relationship with the IOC

the International Olympic Committee. One of the greatest aspects or benefit that you receive is the right and usage of the five rings, depending on what level of contribution you've made to the Olympic Committee. So to the idea to spend 50 to 150 million dollars on rights fees and then not integrate the five rings into your creative, at least in my 35 years with sports marketing, and again I have a bias,

Michael Robichaud (42:54.542)
Yeah.

Tom Carroll (42:56.931)
Yeah.

Steve (43:13.002)
But everything that I've seen suggests that that would be, frankly, neglect. How could you spend $150 million on a product that you believed your consumers had a passion for? And because you've chosen that exclusively from your competitors, when they see you affiliated with it, associated with it, they're going to feel much more that you've got their back. You care about their passions.

So I want to go back to the core point, Michael, about how could we spend, let's just say in rights fees, I'll pick a random number between 25 and 35 million, and let's say I spend another 20 million in activating my NFL partnership. Let's say I'm all in for the sake of discussion of 50 million. And then the biggest day comes in and I actually spend that 15 million, or maybe I have three, four, five ads, as we know ABN InBev will do frequently this year.

It's interesting to see the spread that we have this year. You have a kind of post-COVID resurgence, and you'll see a lot of discussion about who's coming in this year, going back to some of the more legacy brands that are filling the gap that were not there before. So I want to go back to that point. If you don't integrate the intellectual property that you paid for,

then why the heck would you spend the money from the get-go on the rights fee to buy into the NFL? Why not just take an ad out around the Super Bowl and do what you gotta do in the messaging that Tom referred to without having to have spent the 50 million on rights fees and activation behind the NFL if you're not gonna even use the intellectual property that was so expensive for you to buy into?

Michael Robichaud (44:55.522)
Well, I think if it comes down to just the Super Bowl, then that's too small a decision, too small a piece to make the decision. So if you're an official partner, it's the season long value that you get. Then again, times have changed. used to be you could only buy media if you were an official partner. I would also argue certain brands, it's different. If you're Gatorade back when it was launching, there was that relevance of the athletes, the best athletes on the planet were using this.

Steve (44:55.787)
Well, I think if it comes down to just the Super Bowl, that's too small a decision, too small a piece to make the decision. So if you're an official partner, it's the season long value that you get. Then again, times have changed. used to be you could only buy.

media if you were an official partner. I would also argue certain brands it's different. If you're Gatorade back when it was launching there was that relevance of athletes, the best athletes on the planet were using this so you should use it. It's healthy, it makes you a better athlete. That was kind of their early days. So think timing is different. I think if you look at certain brands that we're seeing how they're activating around their Super Bowl, they're doing so many things that they can only do because they're an official NFL partner.

Michael Robichaud (45:23.224)
So you should use it. It's healthy. It makes you a better athlete. That was kind of their early days. So think timing is different. I think if you look at certain brands that we're seeing how they're activating around their Super Bowl, they're doing so many things that they can only do because they're an official NFL partner. And you don't really need to tell everybody because if you're there and you're doing all these activities, in the last piece, 30 seconds is real estate. Anybody who's been involved in the creative process, and I wouldn't say it's always the easiest.

Steve (45:40.337)
And you don't really need to tell everybody because if you're there, you're doing all these activities. last 30 seconds is real estate. Anybody who's been involved.

Michael Robichaud (45:52.798)
very talented people, but 30 seconds, that's real estate. And if you spend three, four, five seconds saying official partner of the NFL, the creatives are going to say, man, I could have tied the story better. There's something you gave up. You gave up something to say that and was it worth what you gave up? Are there other ways you could see it?

Steve (46:08.174)
So go to Michael just just to pop in there so without it's not I want to get off the concept of saying I'm an official sponsor official partner of the NFL what I'm interested in

is should there be some means of communicating, whether graphic, superimposition, should there be some content that somehow is communicated? Maybe I utilize one of my athlete partnerships. It could be completely social impact. It could be anything. But should I make the effort? And it can be very subtle. But I spent that cash.

Michael Robichaud (46:29.646)
Thousand percent. Sure, sure.

Steve (46:42.216)
And you're saying you feel if you were an official partner of the NFL, it's not necessary for you to integrate that into the Super Bowl advertising message. And obviously there's a healthy discussion here.

Michael Robichaud (46:52.024)
I'd have to look at the portfolio. Yeah, I look at everything as like a portfolio of things you have going on. So if you've got 12 activities going on around the Super Bowl, do you need to say official or do you need to communicate to each and every time? Or is it getting across somehow? Maybe the creative is one place you don't have to, but I think what you're getting also is imagery, right? There's rules around things you can use. So if you're an NFL partner and got the team in Disha or...

Steve (46:57.527)
So if you've got 12 activities going on around the Super Bowl, do you need to say official or do you need to communicate each and every time? Or is it getting across somehow? Maybe the creative is one place you don't have to, but I think what you're getting also is imagery, right? There's rules around things you can use. So if you're an NFL partner and got the team indicia or.

Michael Robichaud (47:17.622)
You've got an athlete you're working with, Peyton Manning, whoever it might be, and they're in uniform and they're doing things, well, you can only do that if you're official. So you're implying that you're official by how your creative is done without actually just saying.

Steve (47:17.686)
You know, you've got an athlete you're working with, paid men, whoever it might be, and if they're in uniform and they're doing things, you can only do that if you're official. You're implying that you're official on how your creative is done without actually just saying it. I think it's a false sense of importance when you put that. think consumers are so tight. How many times do you watch something where I'm the official soft drink, we're the official beer, we're the official, it seems like

Tom Carroll (47:30.116)
I think it's a false sense of importance when you put that. think consumers are so tight. How many times do you watch something where I'm the official soft drink, we're the official beer, we're the official. It seems like it's more manipulative than it is. I just think the values get moving more more away from it. And I think that people, you know, if you think about

Steve (47:47.593)
like it's more manipulative than it is. I just think the values get moving more and more away from it. And I think that people, you know, if you think about, I always like to use Apple or Nike as my favorite. When Nike launched, which, shite they actually launched, with their Jordan and John McEnroe and all that, everything was about the athletes. Everything was about.

Tom Carroll (47:59.876)
I always like to use Apple or Nike as my favorite. When Nike launched, which Shite, they actually launched with their Jordan and John McEnroe and all that. Everything was about the athletes. Everything was about showing that superstars wore Nike. then and then all of a sudden, Wyden and Kennedy got the account. We got fired and Wyden Kennedy got the account. And they came up with a strategy.

Steve (48:17.776)
showing that superstars wore Nike. then all of sudden, why did Kennedy got the account? We got fired and why did got the account? And they came up with a strategy. There's an athlete inside everyone, right? And all of a sudden the advertising came from Bo Jackson and Michael Jordan to showing real people using Nikes and being athletes and their business exploded.

Michael Robichaud (48:22.318)
and it's

Tom Carroll (48:29.496)
There's an athlete inside everyone, right? And all of a sudden the advertising went from Bo Jackson and Michael Jordan to showing real people using Nikes and being athletes and their business exploded when they talked to the consumer instead of saying, he wears them. We're a part of that guy, you know, or this one that was entertaining, but it was what happened.

Steve (48:47.569)
when they talk to the consumer instead of saying, wears them, we're part of that guy, you know, or this one. That was entertaining, but it was what their real move in terms of becoming a massive brand beyond just, and people wore it even if they weren't working at playing in sports, they wore Nike because, Mike, he sent such a terrific message about their belief in people and belief in, you know, that people trying to be athletes, trying to be

Tom Carroll (48:57.688)
their real move in terms of becoming a massive brand beyond just, and people wore it even if they weren't working at playing in sports. They wore Nike because Mikey sent such a terrific message about their belief in people and belief in people trying to be athletes, trying to be fit, all that stuff. That was a huge, but that was more realistic than, you know what I mean? So I think it's a double-edged sword about, you know.

Steve (49:17.272)
So, but the distinction I'm hearing is the creative message. And so I want to go back again to you and in getting your just keen insight. Are do you believe that a brand should put its money behind a league or should a brand just communicate lovable creative?

Tom Carroll (49:25.024)
I don't want to be manipulated. I want to be loved, is what I think consumers believe.

Steve (49:47.905)
and if they're not going to integrate the IP, then at what point do I say to myself as a brand team, we don't need to give a league or a team or an event my money. I just need, as you said, lovable creative.

Tom Carroll (50:03.172)
I wouldn't. To me, it just seems like... I don't know. I don't have the metrics to find out whether it matters or not. But instinctually, in terms of how you want a brand to operate, I don't think there's value in it. I think it's lost its value. I think it's ordinary. Yeah, it's ordinary now. It kind of feels like, okay, so you bought that. I don't know how that adds value to...

Steve (50:06.07)
It just seems like I don't know. I don't have the metrics to find

Steve (50:24.273)
So sports sponsorship overall as a

Tom Carroll (50:33.123)
to the brand anymore. just think it's still...

Steve (50:36.63)
I think it depends where it is too, right? If you're in the NFL, that's one thing, but you brought up a point that maybe think about the IRC. People do care about brands that care.

Michael Robichaud (50:37.23)
I it depends where it is too, right? If you're in the NFL, that's one thing, but you brought up a point that made me think about the IOC. People do care about brands that care, right? And that's not a new thing. I mean, it's been talked about more lately, but if you think of something like the Olympics where historically the athletes don't really make a lot of money, these aren't multi-millionaires. And so if you were perceived as supporting the Olympics and supporting these sports that maybe don't get...

Steve (50:47.702)
Right? that's not a new thing. I mean, it's been talked about more lately. But if you think of something like the Olympics, where historically, the athletes don't really make a lot of money. These aren't multi-millionaires. And so if you're perceived as supporting the Olympics and supporting these sports that maybe don't get, people actually feel that. They care about that. And I would say, you know, some of the stuff we did in the last probably six, seven years around women's sports, a lot of the research we did showed that people, you know,

Michael Robichaud (51:05.025)
People actually feel that. They care about that. And I would say, you know, some of the stuff we did in the last, well, probably six, seven years around women's sports, a lot of the research we did showed that people, know, women, women liked brands that supported women's activities. You know, they may not have been passionate about.

Steve (51:17.686)
Women liked brands that supported women's activities. You know, they may not have been passionate about golf or soccer or what have you, but if they knew brands were out there knowing that this was a challenging time and that women's sports weren't being supported the way that men's sports have traditionally, if you were a brand that said, hey, we're going to get in the game and we're going to help grow this and we're going to help make it better, that officialness mattered because you were actually putting your money where your mouth is. You weren't just saying, good for you when the bill for it.

Michael Robichaud (51:24.27)
golf or soccer or what have you. if they knew brands were out there knowing that this was a challenging time and that women's sports weren't being supported the way they men's sports have traditionally, if you were a brand that said, hey, we're going to get in the game and we're going to help grow this and we're going to help make it better, that officialness mattered because you were actually putting your money where your mouth is. You weren't just saying, good for you women, go for it. We're actually trying to make a difference. So in that case, officialness does have value.

Steve (51:47.575)
Tom do you draw a distinction between event and league sponsorship versus an athlete sponsorship or do you lump them all together in our world you've got athlete team league association stadium sponsorship venues and events are you putting them all into one bucket are you actually suggesting there's a distinction and therefore the the the sense that you feel your intuition without the data side

science bar with the out the analytics rather behind it. Would you put them all in one bucket or do you actually feel this is more towards a league? Please help clarify.

Tom Carroll (52:32.74)
You know, I'll give you the one that always drives me nuts, which is MetLife Stadium, you know, which we have. I just feel like the biggest waste of money in the world because everybody I know calls it Giant Stadium. So it's like, where do you go? go to the Giant Stadium? Yeah, I'm well in Giant Stadium. We're in Giant Stadium. I don't know where, I don't have the numbers or the metrics or anything, but to me, the stadium sponsorships just seem so...

Steve (52:45.11)
think it's like the biggest waste of money in the world because everybody I know

I don't know where I don't the numbers or the metrics. To me, stadium sponsorships just seem so I guess there's that much money out there that it's almost like maintenance versus I don't see the value in it. I see the it doesn't I don't see how that translates to me buying metropolitan.

Tom Carroll (53:02.914)
I guess there's that much money out there that it's almost like maintenance versus I don't see the value in it. I don't see how that translates to me buying metropolitan life insurance. I don't get it other than I'm big.

Steve (53:19.0)
and life insurance, I couldn't get it other than I'm big. Okay, so I just to go right into that you mentioned Nike. Let's go right into that for a moment. Nike, Phil Knight, legendary deal with Sonny Vaccaro, who headed up his brand and Michael Jordan. Do you stand opposed to the alliance that was forged between the Nike brand and the Jordan iconic identity as an athlete?

Tom Carroll (53:47.204)
Well, think about that. Think about how that happened. That's how the way they got Michael Jordan to be in the Nike team was the pitch to Michael Jordan was, we're going to create a brand called Air Jordan. That's how they got Michael He was going to Adidas, which I had Adidas for a while as a client. I used to them Adidas until I went to Germany and they said, it's Adidas.

Steve (53:48.129)
Think about that, think about how that happened. That's how, the way they got Michael Jordan to be a nightie, to be in the nightie.

team was the pitch to Michael Jordan was we're going to create a brand called Eric Jordan. That's how they got my he was going to Adidas, which I had Adidas for a while. I used to them Adidas until I went to Germany. they said it's Adidas. And he was he was it was a done deal that he was going to go to Adidas. And then they pitch Eric Jordan and they say, go around. think about

Tom Carroll (54:16.548)
And he was, he was, it was a done deal that he was going to go to Adidas. And then they pitch Eric Jordan and they say, we'll build it around, we'll build that. Now think about that franchise, Eric Jordan right now. I nobody can touch it. It just was so well thought out. And then of course he delivered on it. And then the graphics were brilliant. And he just took, he took it to a whole different level.

Steve (54:30.856)
that franchise. Nobody can touch it. It just was so well thought out and then of course he delivered on it and then the graphics were brilliant and he just took he took it to a whole different level.

Tom Carroll (54:46.912)
But yeah, mean, that's certainly, think Phil Knight and his team, just always had, but there's another great example. Wyden and Kennedy, the ad agency and Nike as a company, they work brilliantly together and making sure that they never did anything uncool. It always had breakthrough thinking. They always did really brilliant stuff. to me, that's why I'm always after the message.

Steve (54:49.846)
Yeah, I mean, that's certainly I think Philip Knight and his team, just always have. But there's another great example. Why did Nick Kennedy, the ad agency at Nike as a company, they work brilliantly together and making sure that they never did anything uncool. It always had breakthrough thinking. They always did really brilliant stuff. So to me, that's why I'm always after the message. You know, the sponsorship to me.

Tom Carroll (55:15.906)
You know, the sponsorship to me, okay, great, you're big. But when you spend money on a message that makes a market and turns some consumers head then says, you know, I never thought of it that way. Saying I'm an official sponsor doesn't turn anybody's head. I don't think it just says I'm big. I have a lot of money.

Steve (55:34.48)
But so just to be clear, the concept of aligning a athlete team league or an association or a stadium venue and event with a brand and paying money for that as a brand to receive those

rights, do you stand in consonance with? You're not averse to that. You're concerned about the message and how it's utilized. You're not averse to a brand paying an abundant amount of money and equity in a product to an athlete, for example. Well, that also goes to that question as well. Who's the athlete? Because lots of them.

Tom Carroll (56:06.254)
Well, that also goes to that question is what's who's the athlete because lots of ads with athletes are boring as hell because the athletes boring as hell. He's flat footed. have to have if they don't have a personality and they don't make you're always trying to make a market, meaning you're always trying to bring more people into your brand proposition. Right. That's what a good message does. It always has.

Steve (56:20.182)
If they don't have a personality and they don't make, you're always trying to make a market, meaning you're always trying to bring more people into your brand proposition, right? That's what a good message It always has that ability to turn somebody's head. Just if I get here for half a second and I've never had your attention before and I get it, then that has to be the sum of the tactics and pouring to my structure.

Tom Carroll (56:34.146)
that ability to turn somebody's head. Just if I get your half for half a second, and I've never had your attention before, and I get it, then that has to be, because some athletes are boring when they sponsor soft drinks and they're like, what a waste of time.

Steve (56:50.316)
I think the message is resonating. Michael, just as we come to the waning moments of this game and this interview, if I could, you wear two hats. You wore one and you wear one presently. You were the head over at MasterCard and Sprint and Extel, and you are now the chief strategy officer at SportsBiz, a company that I founded, and you and I are colleagues.

I don't want to put you on the spot, but you've heard some pretty profound messages from Tom. I'm not going to speak for you. Are you in consonance with Tom's message that a lot of it is just could be just bluster and it's a waste of cash and it's flat footed? Are we hearing?

Michael Robichaud (57:21.454)
Thank

Steve (57:39.702)
Intimidate, that's called a diplomat, Tom. Your relationship with Michael is so long. Michael, said you're the consummate diplomat. You bailed just as you were put on the spot.

Michael Robichaud (57:47.965)
Peace out.

Tom Carroll (57:52.516)
I

Michael Robichaud (57:53.184)
Hahaha

Steve (57:55.639)
We're about to close are you okay Tom for about another three four minutes Okay, perfect Michael are you okay? Are we still recording we're recording okay, so so Michael let me go back so you got my question, right?

Tom Carroll (58:00.516)
I've just got to go at quarter of 12, that's all.

Michael Robichaud (58:04.157)
Great. Fine. Fine. Well, you're my boss. I'm fine. Right now. Right. I think it's a lot. It's a very, it's very complicated answer. It's a time and place for everything. I think it's who your brand is, what time they are in their history. I agree with many of the things Tom said for sure. know, Nike's an interesting one because in a way they're never the official of a lot of things, but they spend a lot of money in their endemic, right? They're

Steve (58:24.822)
things. said for sure. Nike is an interesting one because in a way they're never the official of a lot of things, but they spend a lot of money in their endemic right there.

Michael Robichaud (58:33.661)
They're on the court, they're in the game. You see them just by being there. If you're a brand that's fighting for attention, sports and sponsorships are a way to do that. And in a lot of ways, when you're exclusive, again, a media buy is different, but if you're exclusive in all these other ways, when online became a big deal, you could get on the website so people were going back and looking at you. I believe a million percent that if you're gonna have an athlete.

Steve (58:33.942)
They're on the court, they're in the game. You see them just by being there. If you're a brand that's fighting for attention, sports and sponsorships are way to do that. And in a lot of ways, when you're exclusive, you know, again, a media buy is different, but if you're exclusive in all these other ways, when online became a big deal, right, you could get on the website so people were going back and looking at you. I believe a million percent that if you're gonna have an athlete.

Michael Robichaud (58:59.493)
It's hard. Many of them are not actors and I've had them, they look me in eye like I'm not an actor. And it's like, all right, well, that's okay. We only need you for this part. And the part that I think that's changed the most with an athlete is their social media. There are media companies in it themselves. So I won't say names, but there's a few that maybe don't have the most dynamic personalities and don't have you listening to them or laughing, but just by the sheer volume of their social media, the traffic they're driving.

Steve (58:59.784)
It's hard. Many of them are not actors and I've had them, they look me in eye like I'm not an actor. And it's like, all right, well, that's okay. We only need you for this part. And the part that I think that's changed the most with an athlete is their social media. There are media companies in themselves. So I won't say names, but there's a few that maybe don't have the most dynamic personalities and don't have you listening to them or laughing, but just by the sheer volume of their social media, the traffic they're driving. And then you have to have people like Tom's team, they're helping us with the creative.

Michael Robichaud (59:26.289)
And then you have to have people like Tom's team, they're helping us with the creative. So then when I do get their attention because of the athlete, I then have something to tell them when they get there.

Steve (59:29.748)
So that when I do get their attention because of the athlete I then have something to tell them when they get there. And to your point by the way that's when you from a creative standpoint you start getting very much into the alming yogi berra amex ad

where you had a guy who didn't speak English and it was very simple to create an awfully compelling ad where literally you had two folk, almost one of them just saying one word and that being Yao Ming and it became an effective kind of legendary, if you will, memorable ad. In closing, what it seems, the takeaway at this point is we go into the Super Bowl. Tom mentioned he had 60 or 70 ads that he's created over the course of his career or responsible for in leadership position.

It's a tough business. I was going to almost say it's the luck of the Blarney Stone in some cases, because I cannot believe an expert like Tom Carroll, who would look at an ad and say, I don't believe that that was an outstanding placement for our client. And therefore, when the client looked at the creative that Tom submitted and they were guiding in their account executive team, everyone was on board that they've got a home run or a grand slam.

So obviously reading the human mind and understanding how folk are gonna respond to the message, well, that's the humility factor that we will always be reminded that to the best of our being 100 % inside out like Steve Jobs, well, sometimes you're just gonna punt and kick it out of bounds and it ain't gonna be good and it's just not gonna work. So flat footed is what I take away that for anyone looking, if I can sum up.

If we were looking to go into the Super Bowl and we were creating a message that was going to resonate with our target market, whether you use the IP and in my position use it, but you better use it in the most creative fashion, subtle in a way that is, let's use Tom's term lovable, and I'll call that an intimate connection to me, that you've reached what is passionate, what I'll call the expression of my passions.

Tom Carroll (01:01:18.308)
Yeah.

Steve (01:01:31.294)
And therefore, in doing that, you didn't shout out to me in a way that you might feel is needed, like a point of sale shelf talker that you caught my eye because you had a half a second to make sure that I saw that NFL logo. Because among the 30 choices I had and the paradox of choice, when I saw that NFL ad that no one else had, you caught my attention. It was an attention grabber. And it was situationally specific that was useful. So.

What we do know is sports marketing and sports sponsorship is $100 billion spent by corporations around the world. It's growing every year. That the idea that Steve makes the decision purely based on his proclivities and what he likes as a steward of the brand, those days are going southward, much less, much more accountability. And I think we will see some good ads in this year's Super Bowl. And we're gonna see ones that we all shake our head and say, how the heck.

Tom Carroll (01:02:27.958)
What are they doing?

Steve (01:02:29.724)
And how did it ever get to the theater? And I, for the rest of my life, will look at a movie or look at an ad and I'll come back to Tom Carroll, Michael Robichard, and say, did you guys do that? Just so I would talk about it with my friends, because there's no news that could be bad news for the brand. And therefore, you just needed to be top of mind and cut through all that clutter.

Tom Carroll (01:02:31.876)
Yeah.

Michael Robichaud (01:02:43.709)
Cheers.

Steve (01:02:52.82)
What a pleasure. I want to do this again with both of you. It was meaningful. was substantive. It was real. There's so much more to discuss. But Tom Carroll and its brand equity partners, is that right? Your partnership that you have right now, your new group is brand equity partners. How long has that been in business right now? How long has that been?

Tom Carroll (01:03:09.668)
Correct. Yes. Well, have a, you know, that's funny. We evolved it. We started as brand equity partners and then we've turned to the brand equity ventures because we've also done a lot of, we've raised a lot of capital for these startups. So one of the things that we've been doing is both we're doing, we write the, you know, the positioning, we rename the companies. do all, everybody's involved with in this group.

Steve (01:03:20.148)
the brand equity ventures because we've also done a lot of we've raised a lot of capital for these startups.

So one of the things that we've been doing is both we're doing, we write the positioning, we rename the companies. Everybody's involved in this group is very senior. So we can go and go to either a new business or we took a cybersecurity company and we did the whole thing over in three weeks because they were so flat footed and they didn't really have a message and they weren't distinctive. That category is same as this. So now we're bringing that to the adventure

Tom Carroll (01:03:38.756)
is very senior. So we can go into either a new business or we, you know, we took a cybersecurity company and redid the whole thing over, you know, in three weeks because they were so flat footed and they didn't really have a message and they weren't distinctive. That category is a seam of sameness. So now we're bringing equity ventures because we want to, we want to be much more involved in just making ads or just writing a marketing plan. We want to make the market. And that's really fun.

Steve (01:03:58.409)
We want to be much more involved in just making ads or just writing a marketing plan. We want to make the market. And that's really fun. And it gets us to the CEO and it gets us to the founder and we play with the right guys. If I ever have to deal with a marketing director again, I might have to switch my resume. To be continued on that one. Tom Carroll.

Tom Carroll (01:04:07.266)
And it gets us to the CEO and it gets us to the founders and we play with the right guys. I'm not, if I ever have to deal with a marketing director again in my life, I'll slip my wrist. I want to deal with the CEO and I want to get it done.

There you go. Thank you.

Steve (01:04:25.96)
What a pleasure, again, a veteran of the business, Michael Robichard, former head of global at MasterCard and Nextel Sprint, and now chief strategy officer at SportsBiz, a software development company using AI to help get people out of flatfoot in this, understand how to maximize, optimize, and measure sports sponsorship. What a pleasure having you both on the transaction report today.

Tom Carroll (01:04:51.822)
Thank you.

Michael Robichaud (01:04:53.255)
Thank you.

Steve (01:04:54.026)
Gentlemen good stuff. So Tom just give us one sec Chris Kristen's gonna resurface. No, we didn't lose his stuff but but he but his stuff should resurface

Michael Robichaud (01:04:55.741)
Hang out, Tom. Go hang out, Tom.

Hang up, We told them not to.

Steve (01:05:15.011)
Michael overall you thought Tom was a heck of a lot of fun

Michael Robichaud (01:05:18.695)
yeah, he's great. knew, was thinking, well, we'll turn him loose. But yeah, no, he's good. He's good.