Steve (00:00.526)
So with that said

Larry Mann (00:01.07)
Thank

Steve (00:13.464)
So there are journeymen and there are veterans and then there are those who simply combine that and make for an outstanding sports marketing executive. And Larry Mann who joins us today, executive vice president, partner at Revolution since 2002. Larry, welcome to the Transactual Room.

Larry Mann (00:32.584)
Thanks for having me Steve, really excited to be on today.

Steve (00:35.726)
You know, we're excited to have you. A lot of folk here at SportsBiz and the Transaction Report, the Transaction Report is powered by SportsBiz, our tech company, speak very highly of you. And I wanted to start, actually, we were talking offline about your passion for a particular team. I want to go to a different bent. Now we're talking about March Madness. We're in the throes of March Madness. Second day. I want to ask you a question.

And I want this to be devoid of your personal passion, professionally, and if you will, just who you see, which team you see rising to that championship and winning it. And it could be your alma mater, that being UNC, but in your best judgment, who is going to win March Madness 2025?

Larry Mann (01:27.148)
Wow, that's a loaded question. I thought you were going to ask me, why did North Carolina get into the NCAA tournament? But yeah, yeah, right. They're in, they're in. We all know why they're in. yeah. Well, I think from a brand, yeah, I do think it's been a remarkable year for the SEC. And I think it's unfathomable to think that 14 teams made the NCAA tournament from one conference.

Steve (01:33.452)
No there in, I'm a fait accompli guy. There in, good luck to you. In your best judgement, we'll put on the record UNC, but if you believe that.

Larry Mann (01:56.506)
Back in the day, you there was one team that used to make the NCAA tournament. obviously there's a lot of, you know, the odds, the prognosticators feel like the SEC teams should rise to the top. And as two of them are number one seeds, I do think that it is very top heavy. think Florida and Houston, in my opinion, are the two best teams. But the beauty of March Bend. Florida.

Steve (02:20.267)
I'm going to interject right there. Flip a coin and just give us one. Okay.

Larry Mann (02:26.606)
Ballers best team in the country.

Steve (02:28.909)
As a, again, leading sports marketing expert in our field, I want you to take the Florida example, and it could have been any two, and I want you to give us a diagnostic now for our viewers. And the viewers are very interested in understanding the consequences financially of what it means for Florida. Let's just look out a few weeks down the line. Florida is now...

triumphant victorious NCA 2025 March Madness champions. Here they are the the victors of college basketball. From a from a financial implication standpoint, I want to take stakeholder by stakeholder and I'd like you to share with us. What is the consequence of that victory for Florida? Why don't we start first with? Since you're an old ESPN guy, what's the consequence for getting into the championship game?

Larry Mann (03:24.098)
Yeah.

Steve (03:28.075)
financially for that school.

Larry Mann (03:30.094)
Well, you know, they are sharing it with their conference, but just the school itself, and that's what we're facing right now in all of collegiate athletics is the success that these schools have is drive so much revenue to the university. you see, you know, as an example, Ohio State wins the NCAA football championship, and you see that they now are

you know, their admissions and the applications to attend the university are up 50%. Same, the University of Florida, if they win the national championship, they will see a huge, I mean, Florida has had a very successful run in collegiate athletics. Obviously, they won, they were the first team to win back to back in the mid 2000s, or in 2006, 2007.

Steve (04:04.469)
Mm, mm.

Larry Mann (04:25.006)
There's obviously it's not like if Florida wins the national championship would be a new thing for them, but they haven't been as good recently and so and they certainly haven't been good in football. So I think you'll see that same impact the University of Connecticut impact by winning two time national champions. You'll see a flood of revenue that will flow into the school. I think one of the things that's interesting. It's what they actually make as an institution by winning the championship from.

the media rights holders and those types of things is definitely not as reported because they do share it with their conference partners. And so they share it with the other institutions, especially with 14 teams getting in. Of course, they call it the unit that you win for every game you win in the NCAA tournament, but then that split between the 18 ways. So there definitely is revenue, but...

The biggest thing is, is in this day and age with what we're dealing with, these schools desperately need revenue. And so they're gonna be looking for ways to, you know, to be able to take that opportunity and monetize, you know, whether now they are able to sell a brand on their basketball court, because they're the national champion or in football, you know, because the spotlight's been on the University of Florida for basketball.

Would they be able to do some stuff for multi-marketing brands? So it's not a number you could say it's X, but it's a lot of variables that'll go into that number.

Steve (05:59.896)
So let's look again at a team like St. Francis PA loses yesterday at Alabama State. They're out. So again, we understand you mentioned we have a benefit to the school with respect to increased applications. They're literally in the spotlight nationally and internationally as being covered. There's a lot of messaging about not only the team and the school, but about the players. So from an NIL standpoint.

Larry Mann (06:04.301)
Yeah.

Steve (06:28.941)
from a name image like in the stand-up world, what we would call in the old days, an endorsement deal for an athlete, where that athlete is putting his or her name, in this case we're talking about the men's bracket at the moment, but equally so for the women's bracket, putting their names behind a brand and saying, my impromatur, my visual, my voice is gonna lend itself in a way that's gonna help your brand elevate its pitch, its connectivity, to reach the passions of the mindscape.

Larry Mann (06:33.997)
Right.

Steve (06:58.815)
of that brand's consumers. Therefore, target marketing, therefore, are we gonna see a bump when these athletes migrate through the bracket and get to that championship from Florida? Should we expect a specific lift and what that lift might look like for those ballplayers on the Florida squad?

Larry Mann (07:19.314)
for sure, especially I mean you take Saint Francis from last night. That was a two hour infomercial for the Saint Francis. mean there's a lot of people that don't even know who Saint Francis is and there's going to be SIU Edwardsville and I grew up in North Carolina. There's a school called High Point that no one's a lot of people haven't heard of is in the tournament and so that's actually one of the beauties of the NCAA tournament is it becomes an infomercial for.

these schools that nobody knows about. But coming back to your question about the University of Florida, yeah, these players on Florida, as they continue to deliver and do more, and basketball players, because their faces are shown versus football, where their faces are not shown behind helmets, the NIL opportunities will be significant as they evolve through the tournament and continue to win. And let's say they win on a last second shot.

or something unique happens to one of the players, the NIL opportunities will become pretty significant.

Steve (08:22.413)
you were guiding a brand, a sponsor, a steward of the sponsorship budget, and any of the, let's call it 70 industries that use sports as a strategic tool to again impact their bottom line in some capacity, whether it's short term or long term.

And short term could be point of sale activity, integrating the IP, the intellectual property of a specific sponsorship into some form of activation that's making a sale tangible and measurable as it's occurring so that you can see more of a causation versus just correlation. And some could be long term where it's just B2B, VIP, corporate hospitality, and maybe you didn't lose a deal, you maintained a relationship because you had one of your...

key VIPs in the room with one of those superstars that somehow they were very favorable toward and you made them very happy or they were in a program with you or whatever the function may have been. So let's talk about if you were guiding a corporate sponsor as to what they should be looking for, for an any ideal. They're right now on the lookout through March Madness to identify an athlete, male or female, that's going to best represent their brand.

Larry Mann (09:15.391)
you

Larry Mann (09:26.702)
you

Steve (09:37.954)
They don't know of the athlete per se at this point in time. It's not a GOAT established name in the industry. What would you tell them they should be looking for? You mentioned two just now. You said one might be a last minute bucket like we saw last night with Alabama State with one second. And another might just be a unique event that happens throughout the tournament. If you could be more specific, again, if you put on your tactical hat, guiding brand A, seeking out athlete,

Larry Mann (09:44.182)
Right?

Larry Mann (09:54.008)
Yeah.

Larry Mann (10:00.952)
Yeah.

Steve (10:07.797)
What are we trying to, what boxes do we check in this process through March Madness?

Larry Mann (10:12.674)
Well, one of the big things here at Revolution, we strive to do for our brand partners is we talk about authenticity and we want our brand partners to make sure that whatever they're doing, it's authentic and it feels comfortable in their space. Because the last thing you want to do is to force an athlete or a property or whatever you're doing to push a brand message.

that doesn't fit with your brand.

Steve (10:43.223)
Can you give us an example before we move to the alternative, positive, good fit, can you give us an example throughout your career of a fit that you looked at and said wrong, forced fit? Doesn't work.

Larry Mann (10:48.566)
Right, right.

Larry Mann (10:57.666)
Well, there's been a lot. unfortunately, you trial by error and in the business we're in. at Revolution, we don't do a ton of NIL, I will say. And the reason why is because a lot of our brand partners or most of our brand partners need spikes in awareness quickly. And in the NIL space in its current form, most of the athletes need the brand to promote

the athlete versus the athlete to promote the brand. And what I mean by that is you don't the athlete. I like to use an example and Dr. Pepper brought out a quarterback from actually from Clemson. And, you know, he was not well known in the college space. They put him into their face of their campaign.

And then unfortunately, Dr. Pepper, which is a big time college football player, had expected Clemson to go to the playoff and they didn't. And so then it's like you're stuck with an endorsement with an athlete that unless you're a diehard fan, you don't totally know. And so we use that as an example. was DJ, I'm drawing a blank on his last name, but this was so correct.

Steve (12:15.787)
Yuga Lele. And by the way, he ended up actually transferring the portal out of Clemson, right? And he had just a shattered experience over at Florida.

Larry Mann (12:22.328)
Correct. Comes in and then he went, he's gone several places. He's had a really rough. Correct. Florida. And so it's, it's interesting because you look at some of those student athletes in the college space and you think, Hey, you know, that, didn't, you know, that didn't quite work. And so, I think that at revolution where we strive to work best is if we're doing a campaign.

And the campaign fits a particular athlete because of what, you know, what they're known for. you know, I use, I use an example. work for, we work for Discover Card as the official credit card of the Big Ten. And they're also the official credit card of the NHL and the official banking partner of the NHL. And we had an opportunity recently to, on our NHL partnership to use Wayne Gretzky in a campaign.

And it really resonated because people view Wayne Gretzky as the face of hockey. And one of our challenges has been over the years is to really remind consumers that DiscoverCard has been a partner of the NHL for a long period of time. And so by bringing Wayne Gretzky into the campaign, it gave one an authentic name. Wayne Gretzky is as authentic as it comes in the hockey space.

but it also allowed for discoverer's awareness and brand connectivity to the NHL to rise. And the data supports that in the campaign that we rolled out around the Winter Classic that we just finished up in January of 2025 and then ran in the Four Nations, which was obviously an unbelievable event. that's an example of using an athlete or a former athlete.

One very recognizable face. People know Wayne Gretzky whether you're a hockey fan or not and he was very authentic to the Discover Car brand which is we are forever.

Steve (14:27.775)
So when you go back to again the March Madness and we're looking again, talked athlete lift for those who are journeying through. Obviously they're getting more air time. This is not necessarily football. So this is basketball. One of the weaknesses when we compare endorsement deals, football players wear helmets, basketball players don't. They're recognizable. I used to say you could take, I'm from New York, you could take every lineman offensive and defensive on the New York Giants and put them on a bus just seeing their head.

Larry Mann (14:30.829)
Yeah.

Larry Mann (14:40.664)
Right.

Steve (14:57.173)
and only their head and drive them through Wall Street, one of the most sports crazed, know, square mile for square mile spaces in the United States. And at the end of the day, I'd say there are very few people that would recognize alignment offensive or defensive from the Giants. Obviously when we're talking basketball, we've got the benefit of this immediately identifiable athlete and one who is gonna get enormous visual national time, consistently multi-platform.

Larry Mann (15:11.907)
Bye.

Steve (15:25.461)
So they're getting not just the old days of legacy media of linear broadcasting, looking at free to air and cable, but we have a whole brave new world, which we'll come to in just a moment. Most recent article, which I wanted to talk to you about streaming 3.0 by Ed, I believe Desser and John Costner, write occasionally for SBJ routinely, I should say for the SBJ, phenomenal article. Actually, I found it to just very gripping article about the transition that we're in right now in the broadcast world. And I know that's...

Larry Mann (15:42.924)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Steve (15:54.478)
an area of expertise of yours, I wanna find another benefit to Florida that financially, and we didn't talk about it yet, which is the sponsor. If I have an affiliation with Florida and I'm a corporate brand and you guided me to that school, let's say you were a multimedia rights holder and you were selling the rights to a particular school, just I think a week ago we saw a $550 million ten-year deal with PlayFly and Texas A &M.

Larry Mann (16:22.542)
Yeah, Texas A

Steve (16:23.885)
the 20 million plus increase per year. Remarkable deal. mean, the numbers are half a billion dollars for one of the biggest athletic departments in the country on spend. Let's go back. If you were guiding a brand to sponsor Florida as a team, as a school, what did they get out of this? How do they benefit from this relationship of six? I'm talking about a brand that is aligned with the school, sponsoring that team.

Larry Mann (16:25.934)
They'll never make that back. Yeah.

Larry Mann (16:46.862)
Are you talking about the brand? Yeah.

Steve (16:52.493)
part of the lore of that university and now that team really performs well. What do you see that they're gaining?

Larry Mann (16:57.358)
Yeah, well, I mean, you there's the inherent sports 101 is that you know if you're a sponsor of a brand, fans of the fans of the team will support the brand. You know that that whole idea, which I think you know the research still shows there's there's some of that to be to be true that if you're Chick-fil-A and you're a sponsor of the University of Florida, you're going to frequent Chick-fil-A more than you make frequent Wendy's because they're a sponsor of Florida. So you have that inherent piece, but I also think that.

you know, as brands are looking to gravitate to the college space, and it is a great space, we do a tremendous amount in it, there is that passion and you know, you know, my office is decorated with North Carolina stuff, you know, you've got, you know, there's that university passion and where you went to school and, and especially with that income force of folks, alumni of schools and most companies that are trying to reach that target, there's so much, you know,

integrated opportunities for brands, whether it be in the financial services, whether it be credit cards, whether it be banking, whether it be autos, know, QSRs, know, pharmaceuticals, healthcare, all those categories gravitate to college sports because, you know, the fans of college sports have disposable income. And you look at Florida and obviously the state of Florida, the University of Florida, you look at

The state of Florida and the other big schools, the University of Miami and Florida State have not had the success on the field that Florida is having in basketball per se, especially in basketball. But all of them not great in football. Even Florida has been struggling in football. So you look at it, okay, from a regional perspective, I want to go with a team that's, you know, or a school that is having success and they certainly are. And if they win the national championship, they will be.

Steve (18:49.773)
So if you were one of those financial institutions associated, I'm not familiar with the portfolio of brands that Florida Gators have amassed, but if they have a financial institution, what is it that's gonna happen for them over the course of the next three weeks as this team might win its third national championship?

Larry Mann (19:00.748)
Yeah, they will.

Larry Mann (19:09.208)
Well, mean, you referenced it earlier, the use of the IP. mean, having the IP access, know, if you're, you know, if you're a, let's say you're the, you're down there, it's probably Regions Bank or a bank, you know, or once a brand that is, you know, has an affinity to the Southeast, you know, maybe even more so than nationally, you know, because that's the other piece, the driver of collegiate athletics is.

there is a regional or a local flair to those, those sponsorships. And so, you know, if you look at their, you know, who their partners are, and you look at somebody in that area of the state of Florida and they continue to win, it's a huge, huge opportunity. The other piece is a lot of the multimedia rights that you receive as a partner, you know, the digital assets, the homepages of the teams, you know, if your teams progression in the tournament,

You know, alumni and fans are going to be on those pages checking out, you know, if there's any injuries or any, you know, there's some pictures as the team is traveling from one city to the next as they go and it's your brand is affiliated with that. know, we have a we have a brand partner in continental tire that has done a tremendous amount in with colleges and universities. And the primary goal there is not really to tie as much into

the infrastructure at the university, but to tie back to the media. And so we do a whole signage campaign because we want to have our brand courtside in college basketball. University of Florida is one of our brand partners. And so during the regular season, now again, it ends in the tournament because they're not in the end, they're not an NCAA partner, but it gives Continental Tire that affiliation with the University of Florida. And then they watch the commercials on ESPN and then they feel like our signage and our commercials match.

The research on that program for the last five years has been phenomenal.

Steve (21:06.401)
by the way, also a major league soccer sponsor and very, very visible one. And, and it's interesting about that issue of sponsorship done well as you describe it. And I agree with you depending on the context, particularly when you're not a title sponsor, in fact, emphatically when you're not a title sponsor, one of the most important factors, if you want that recall, at least attempted recall is you've got to parallel spend.

Larry Mann (21:10.69)
Correct. Yep. Yep.

Steve (21:36.096)
inactivation on some commercial film behind that broadcast of the event, just to make sure that you're emphatic during the off-camera play. And again, that coming back into play and seeing Continental again, having seen an ad, is certainly a synergy that a lot don't take advantage of, a lot lose out on that, particularly when they're not title sponsors and you have virtually no...

Larry Mann (21:44.535)
you

Larry Mann (21:56.088)
Correct.

Steve (22:03.511)
virtually no graphic superimposition of your brand signage and almost no verbal, you know, announcer referencing. So it's very tricky just having, as someone once said, an impression, a signage advertising impression doesn't necessarily make an impression. And I would say more often than not in today's world that you and I live in, it can very rarely make an impression depending on where it's situated, is there a moving camera, what's the clutter like? And I want to go to that next point.

when it comes to what you said about your company having a relationship with University of Florida. When you look at sponsorship done well, if we, and there are obviously other stakeholders to look at in the March Madness, Trek Ahead, one is obviously all the betting facilities and how that ends up being tailored to particular teams winning, not winning. What does it mean? I don't know if, is there any material benefit? Does any school?

have a specific, I'm ignorant of this Larry, does any school have a direct betting relationship or is it only through the actual?

Larry Mann (23:10.424)
mean, the NCAA is trying, I mean, even though they're an inept organization, hopefully nobody from the NCAA is listening, but they are in, the betting has been tried to be kept as a separate entity. in this current environment, especially, you know, in states that don't have legalized gambling, Florida is one of them that doesn't. you're not, but even here in Illinois, where I live,

we do have legalized betting, but you're not seeing the University of Illinois or Northwestern do brand partnerships with betting companies. It's really been a category. They will allow them to advertise in the pregame and in the postgame, but they've really tried to keep those entities out of the in-game arena. But it's inevitable. I mean, look, if we were talking five years ago, we would have been saying the same thing about Miller Beer.

And, you know, the Coors and Mudwiser were not going to be allowed to advertise in collegiate athletes. And now you can buy a beer while you're watching a college game on a college campus. So I think it'll become inevitable. But right now, obviously, there's so much money in that space, but it's not it's not something that's that that's being done.

Steve (24:28.397)
So if you were, and before we journey on to other areas of discussion, if you, again, because of your long standing relationship in this industry as a sports marketing expert, when you look at March Madness, and if you were one of the official, I think they call champions, pardon, if I'm not mistaken.

Larry Mann (24:49.72)
Champion party where there's 30 champions Coca Cola, AT &T and Capital One and then there's the ones below at about 8 to 9 up to yeah. Yeah, and then your champions.

Steve (24:58.605)
got your partners and then above that you've got your champions. So as you sell that and if you were and again I believe Google the last time I checked in one of the partners I forget if they're a champion or regardless you're a sponsor of March Madness you're a sponsor of you have a relationship with the NCA what would you be doing now and obviously you would have done it well in advance of March Madness

but for outstanding sponsorship, execution and activation. What should have been done if you were one of those champions or partners of March Madness, of the NCA? You have the right to the championship logo, you have the right to the NCA logo as IP, just as an example. There's activation rights at venue. What would you...

Larry Mann (25:44.172)
Mm-hmm.

Steve (25:53.762)
How would you structure in this microminute large language model of AI input your Gemini from Google right now? And I put that feed in and I say, Larry, the AI, you are a sports marketing expert. I am a brand, consumer, let's call it a fast moving consumer goods brand. And I am one of those champions or partners. Can you tell me months and months and months in advance, and you might have done it well.

Well in advance of that, once the event ended in April, you would have probably been working on next year's March Madness. What would make for an outstanding relationship with March Madness, and specifically March Madness, that you would have said this makes for a really well-rounded maximization of what we paid all this rights money for?

Larry Mann (26:45.102)
Yeah, well, it's interesting because there's a lot of debate about March Madness because when you buy the use of the oval from the disc, whatever they want to call it, from Turner or Warner Brothers slash CVS, you know, in some ways, a lot of the brands are buying it for a three week activation. March Madness. Even that to all the 28 other Champions events. to my point, if you really are going to use March Madness to its best,

Steve (27:04.649)
even though they've got access to the 90 teams in the NCAA.

Larry Mann (27:15.468)
and Capital One does an excellent job of this, you have to activate across the platform. You have to utilize the other sports. And they have the Capital One Cup, they have other aspects they sponsor on ESPN, the baseball, there's softball, there's lacrosse, there's a lot of other NCAA sports that you have access to. But if you look at the majority of the partners, not at the champion level, because the champion level, the spends that they're spending,

Their CMOs would have obviously been let go if they didn't spend in the other aspects. But that's only three of them. That's Capital One, AT &T, and Coke. There are a plethora of other brand partners of the NCAA, and you're seeing them this week. You're seeing Wendy's. You're seeing Great Clips. You're seeing all these brands. You see Home Depot. But they are literally buying this three-week window, spending.

extensive money on their television creative to engage with the NCAA basketball consumer. It's wonderful. However, if you want to be authentic, which is something that I always come back to, and you want to be an authentic NCAA player, Vesco is another one in the financial services category, who tends to spend the majority of their money and activation, or money slash activation, in the men's and women's NCAA tournament,

There's a lot that they're leaving on the table because it can be a 12 month 365 day platform and at Revolution we used to represent Northwestern Mutual, which was an NCAA partner and we did a lot. We did a lot around, you know, rowing because it was in New Jersey or from right there was at it was at Princeton and now maybe there's only 100 people that come. But in the financial services world, those 100 people that would come to the rowing NCAA championships were.

their core target. And we did a lot, I think, and they were not a champion level, but, and they moved on for various reasons. But I think that if you're going to be authentic in the NCAA space and you're going to be true to consumers, you should support more than just men's and women's basketball.

Steve (29:29.281)
What about the advent of all the new leagues? We're almost in the last several months, we've seen a new league announced, if not weekly, bi-weekly. there's a lot. I think, actually, I don't know if we told our producer told you, but for the remaining quarter of the hour, that's what our brainstorming session will achieve together. So we're happy to share that revenue with you. So here's the question.

Larry Mann (29:38.03)
Steve, we could open up a league in about 20 minutes if you wanted to. What do you want to do? mean, there are so many...

Larry Mann (29:51.126)
Yeah, let's come over then. There's a lot of them.

Steve (29:57.646)
I don't wanna do too many two-part questions, but it's very interrelated. Are we getting to a point, going back to Kossner and Dessert's article, if you're a tech company today, in fact, I took a citation, I wanted to just read to you something super quick that it floored me because I just simply had no idea of the breadth of and scope of this company. I knew it was important.

But when was talking about all the new players over the last, call it five to 10 years, coming into the space on specifically streaming. When you look at Netflix, right? And you look, they tested the waters first, said, they were concerned it was gonna be too expensive to get into the broadcast space. And now they're dabbling and they're getting more active. It was a very interesting comment that John and Ed made in their article streaming 3.0. They said,

Sports is crucial for retention. is following on prior paragraphs. says, pure play Netflix has a market cap of $415 billion. More than legacy Disney, Fox, Warner Brothers Discovery, Paramount, and Comcast combined. They say tech matters emphatically. So the pool of potential rights bidders.

is expanding, right? 43 % of the people who have been consuming sports, the latest poll by our friends at Nielsen have said that 43 % of all sport is consumed today through streaming. And of that 11%, by the way, comes off of YouTube.

Larry Mann (31:24.238)
for

Larry Mann (31:42.734)
Well, Fox came out and said 52 % stream the Super Bowl. But that's because they gave away to me as a free subscription, so maybe they they goose the numbers. But I mean, but if you're but yeah, I mean go ahead, because I think it's interesting, because I think streaming is an interesting term and we do a lot in this space. Because you know we're in the sports media space as well here revolution and. It's interesting because I get asked all the time is sports moving to a streaming vertical and.

Steve (31:46.669)
Mmm.

Larry Mann (32:13.198)
I mean, streaming, what is streaming? Because it's not just watching it on your phone anymore. You can stream YouTube through your television. You can stream any of these providers or publishers through any means you want. And so I think that I truly believe that we should maybe even drop the word streaming because at the end of the day, it's content. And it's just how are people consuming that content? And

Steve (32:23.661)
100 %

Larry Mann (32:41.57)
And how are, you know, how is the pie being split up? And you reference these leagues. I mean, there are so many leagues coming out. And the interesting thing is, is someone is telling these leagues, you don't need to deliver that many eyeballs and you can still make money, which is a little contrary to how we all grew up in this business. So I don't know.

Steve (33:04.279)
So recognizing that we can use another name for the moment, what we understand is, number one, we don't need a government license to broadcast, right? So streaming takes a lot of barriers to trade and a lot of expense behind it. And it jettisons that. It seems like it takes a lot more entrepreneurial folk and puts them behind the decision-making who have a bit more startup mentality than perhaps some of the legacy networks that you and I...

Larry Mann (33:14.68)
Correct.

Steve (33:34.072)
grew up with CBS Wide World of Sports and we had three television networks we went to to consume our sports content and that was it. And there was no recording of it. You either saw it or you didn't. So from a consequential standpoint as a sponsor, $100 billion goes as we understand it globally into the business of sports sponsorship, right? Athlete Team League Associations,

Larry Mann (33:43.992)
Bye.

Larry Mann (33:50.638)
you

Steve (34:03.391)
stadiums, venues, and events. That's where that cash goes from the companies. And with that spend, obviously, we're in this transitory stage from a standpoint of the brand. How does this impact their decision making? I have a few thoughts, but I'd rather hear yours first, please.

Larry Mann (34:27.596)
You mean decision making as relates to how do they get themselves involved in these?

Steve (34:32.269)
So first and foremost, there are a lot of sports today that are gaining some traction because they are capable of gaining, number one, either some tertiary cable support or streaming support. Anyone can set up, Those with some reasonably good production skills can go with some relatively inexpensive equipment as happened in the World Lacrosse Championship back when I was involved with it briefly in 2018.

Larry Mann (34:55.692)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Steve (34:59.115)
And you can capture every single game for the entire tournament. And you can say, we're streamed, we've got broadcasting. That's my authenticity now has been established as an event because I have a distribution platform. have a footprint or let me rephrase that. I have a potential viewership that may come and watch this because there is a methodology to go on and literally internet access it.

As a sponsor, what changes in your behavior is you choose to find the optimal fit for the brand association, Larry. What is it that all of this transition that's taking place from linear, again, free to air and cable to whatever you want to call it for the moment, I'm going to call it streaming. All of these locations where all of sudden Amazon Prime has an audience and a power.

Larry Mann (35:53.742)
Yeah.

Steve (35:56.462)
that is bigger than any of those networks we reference, the ABCC, SNBC. When you look at Netflix, when you look at Metta, and obviously Dana White going onto the board of Metta, signals something significant coming their way with respect to sports. And there are many others, obviously Apple and its 250 million rights fee acquisition of the major league soccer and coming in and what should appear to everyone is one of the sweetest deals in broadcasting at 250 million a year, excuse me, at 20.

Larry Mann (36:09.55)
Yeah.

Steve (36:26.413)
250 million a year rather for 10 years when we look and just talking about March Madness and CBS and Turner share now a 900 million plus annual fee for those basically as you said March Madness rights so anything change in my decision-making process as a Client when I'm trying to choose the right fit for the right sponsorship

Larry Mann (36:37.358)
Right.

Larry Mann (36:50.286)
Well, mean, think it's still is you still you want to use your base, you know, we use a consulting diagram here revolution where we have a team of consultants and we look to see what your brand and who your targeting is and who you're trying to reach. And, you know, all those types of metrics that would go into whether we're sponsoring, you know, the lacrosse league or, you know, we had a situation, you know, not too long ago.

You know the change in the women's hockey league came about when Billie Jean King and her group came in and put in a ton of money, the PWHL. And so, you know, as our client DiscoverCard, we're very heavy involved in men's hockey with the NHL. We felt like we did need a balancing act and have to have a piece with that. You know, the media piece, obviously the streaming was going to be an ESPN Plus, but we had to get the dollars and cents right because obviously with Billie Jean coming in,

you know, they were trying to take it to this next level. But before you take it to next level, you still have a look at it at your base audience. You want the pricing to match up with what you're going to get from a delivery perspective. And I think if you can find these grassroots sports and find the opportunities that present themselves and that's core to your brand and what your brand is trying to stand for, you can have success. But I mean, one of the things and we could spend a whole other session on where women's sports is going.

But the women's sports and so much of the, you know, there's just this rush of brands to say, my God, I gotta be involved in women. I gotta be involved in women. But it's like, wait a minute. You know, the WNBA, the NWSL, I mean, these properties have created themselves with their streaming partners, with Amazons, with all this stuff that they're pricing themselves in some ways completely out of the realm of...

of a good deal or even a deal that offers value. And so I think that there's going to be a little bit of a level set. The other challenge is because there are so many streamers and if you're the rights holder, you're willing to take a deal from anybody. And so I look at an interesting situation that occurred earlier this year with Turner or Warner Brothers Discovery when they went to Unrivaled on the women's women's pro basketball and they said, hey, look, we're

Larry Mann (39:15.192)
We're gonna buy these rights, but we don't want these to be shared with anyone else. And the reasoning behind that was, which I thought was interesting is, it's gonna be hard enough for consumers to watch this, but if they have to go try to find it on three different channels, forget about it. And so I found that to be fascinating, and I think that's a story to watch as we move forward, because you're seeing these rights, and they're being broken up into so many different,

different entities and streamers and this and that, that it's very difficult. You sit down on your couch on a Friday, and like, hey, I want to watch this game. Where is it? And you'll spend 10 minutes looking or channel guiding or looking through your phone on streaming services, and you'll give up. And so I think that that's something, too, we got to be very careful of. The NBA and their movement to Amazon and to NBC and to leaving Turner, you know, that's going to be one, obviously MLB.

in ESPN their divorce, you're going to see God knows how many partners ESP or MLB is going to go look because Manfred is going to have to go to his owners and say, hey, we're getting 550 million from ESPN. I got to get that money back. How many of that money back is slicing?

Steve (40:30.093)
So I want to take you back to one thing you said about women's and yes, we could spend as long on women's as we do on men's. So I want to, you, you, came across an article in which you were talking about the impact that Caitlin Clark was having. And I'm not concerned about the Caitlin effect per se. I do want to just point out that if I'm ESPN, I must be a kid in a candy store having signed

Larry Mann (40:35.81)
Yeah, a whole session on that. Yeah.

Larry Mann (40:46.914)
Yeah.

Steve (40:58.989)
signed that deal in January of 2024 to correct. They look, mean, just with all the timing and I imagine if I'm NCA, if I only had another year to sign that in January of 2025, the numbers must have been, would have been astronomically higher as a result of the Caitlin effect, this surge into a, it was a tipping point, it was an inflection point. It was a Malcolm Gladwell-esque moment.

Larry Mann (41:00.59)
The new NCADL? Yeah, they look like heroes.

Larry Mann (41:14.86)
It awaited.

Larry Mann (41:20.878)
Correct.

Steve (41:26.785)
where we saw an individual have a tiger woods once in a blue moon.

Larry Mann (41:29.304)
Yeah.

She's generational talent.

Steve (41:35.298)
generational talent and then all that had been built for women's sports prior to that with the Morgans and soccer and everyone else who had literally gotten us to the cusp, she kind of just pushed it and the tipping point occurred. What I'm interested in is about as a sponsor, is there ever a point where there's over saturation? I'll give you an example. Before Caitlin declared her

professional.

career shift from college ball. She had 12 endorsement deals. Gainsbridge, Gatorade, Goldman Sachs, Nike, State Farm, it goes on and on. She's added more since she turned pro, right? NBA has, as we counted last, 50 official or 52 official partners. As a sports marketer again,

Larry Mann (42:13.315)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Steve (42:35.725)
How do you counsel me as a brand? Is there a method I should be aware of? Is there a system of analysis I should deploy as a brand? When I'm looking at putting my company's name and money behind an athlete or a team or a league, whatever it may be, venue, can there be, particularly when these are super brands,

and whether they're super brands on national level, international level or regional level. Larry, is there ever a point where you look at a sponsorship and say, you can't stand out. You're gonna have to spend 20 to the one that you might've spent. It would have been a one to one equation. You're gonna have to spend $20, $10 to the one. If you're ever gonna attempt to compete with all of these other super brands, can a athlete or a league or a team, et cetera,

hit a point of oversubscription and what is that point? Okay?

Larry Mann (43:34.446)
Oh, for sure. I mean, I actually, Caitlin Clark is oversubscribed. I mean, we were...

Steve (43:40.909)
Okay? When did she become oversubscribed?

Larry Mann (43:45.102)
Soon after her college career ended. mean, because, well, right, that's my point, is that like...

Steve (43:49.048)
but she already had 12 sponsors prior to pro. So, but at what point, take us through that trajectory. I'm paying you a retainer for your firm to guide me the brand. I'm interested in Caitlin. At what point do you look at me and I can go through her other eight sponsors and share with you. Again, most of them are super brands, right? So,

Larry Mann (43:59.436)
Yeah.

Larry Mann (44:10.658)
Yeah, but in in in it's interesting you bring that up see because we represent we tend to represent the brands are trying to fight through the clutter and I'll represent while reference one. We work for the principal financial group. They're based in Des Moines, Iowa. They are not only the biggest Caitlin Clark fans, but they also are trying to bridge themselves into NCAA sports. We took on a partnership with the John Wooden award because we wanted to be in NCAA.

But because of Invesco and all these other categories, there was no way for them to play unless they got in this way. And so through media and through the sponsorship, so we had some sort of a North star. But early in 2023, late 2023 into the 24 season, we knew Kailin Clark is winning that window. I mean, there was no one that was even coming anywhere close to her. And so then it became as, OK, what's the what's the application? How do we?

activate against that. And as she kept picking up more and more sponsors, that's when I had to turn to my brand team at principal and say, guys, we should do what we can as we alliance with our award, but we're going to get dwarfed. She'd launched the State Farm TV commercial that she was running on on on Big Ten basketball. Yeah, Wilson, she did a Gatorade commercial and exactly. And so principal, which is a nice little Midwest.

Steve (45:28.169)
She did Wilson concurrently. She did Gatorade at the same time.

By the way, just as a point of notation, those ads started to look awfully similar.

Larry Mann (45:40.738)
Very similar, very similar.

Steve (45:43.309)
So then how do you guide that brand to penetrate that clutter?

Larry Mann (45:49.068)
Well, we didn't do a sponsorship with her, even though her mother and the CMO went to grade school together. mean, Des Moines not that big, so these guys all knew each other. And as much as there was this love and we just continue to. It is true, it is true. The mother and the advertising head they went to. Correct, yep, they they went to. They went to grade school together. The mother, not the CMO, the head of advertising, CMOs from.

Steve (46:03.245)
By the way, I'm sorry, is that really true that they all know each other in Des Moines? Okay, thank you. Just wanted to clarify that. was just, Snopes fact check, by the way.

Larry Mann (46:18.392)
from actually the New York area, but the head of advertising at the principal and Caitlin's mother grew up together. I mean, that's how close this is. And so there was a whole lot of things they did off the record and she produced some content and things like that. But as it relates to doing an official brand part, she also hired, you know, one of the biggest baddest sports agents in the planet, Excel. So their job is to try to drive as many of these deals. They did the State Farm Gator and all that. so

You had just a convoluted of things and you know, it just made it for a brand of the size of the principle. You're not going to win. And so it made it simple. Now we had the wooden award. got a lot of great exposure for her tie into winning the wooden award and all that. And we stayed in our lane, but we did not go to the big way and try to.

buy a sponsorship or buy a deal with her where she was going to be in creative because she would have been Dwarf.

Steve (47:20.781)
So just for clarification for those out there, just for those who may not know when Larry mentioned that she hired XL Jeff Schwartz's group, Casey Close and many other fine experts in the area of sports marketing, at the end of the day, she did not pay them to actually work for her, but they get a nice, do you believe that Caitlin Clark paid XL to go out and farm?

Larry Mann (47:22.274)
Or the brand would have been Dwarf, not her, she's big as, yeah.

Larry Mann (47:40.982)
Is that true?

Larry Mann (47:46.436)
right, right. No, correct. Correct. Right. No, right, right. I know. I know. Right. Yeah. No, they, they all were lining up to represent her. But what's, what, one thing, one final thing on Caitlin, it's been interesting since the end of the WNBA season, how quiet she's been. She did, there was an opportunity for her to go on rivals. She also didn't go, the NBA was desperately trying to get her or Sabrina.

Steve (47:47.213)
Right, right. So they're getting a little piece of the pie that they bring to the table. But, please.

Steve (48:06.615)
Well, she didn't go to Unrivaled, so she had an opportunity.

Larry Mann (48:15.8)
to do that Stephen Curry, some sort of gimmick around the NBA All-Star game. Yep. And she vehemently said no. Sabrina ended up pulling the trigger at the last minute. you're so...

Steve (48:20.813)
Three point, yeah, yeah.

Steve (48:29.323)
I just want to interject, that could be a very good thing. I've seen so many young athletes get so overextended so early, and I don't think she's one of them, but I've been at one and seen firsthand, smart, smart. But by the way, just as a reference from our good friend who actually has also appeared on the show twice, Kurt Maddenhausen, who was one of the codifiers of the

Larry Mann (48:39.224)
That was my point. I agree. No, I agree. She is not, she's being extremely strategic about what she's doing. Very smart. No, no.

Steve (48:56.909)
know, team valuation system when it was at Forbes, now over at Sportico. Interesting article he came out with not too long ago that in 2024, her earnings, just for your reference, I did not know the statistic and I would have been wrong 100 out of 100 times. Do you know what percent of her salary represents her overall earnings for 2024? Great guess, great guess. So you're about 900 % higher. It's 1%, 99 % of all her money came.

Larry Mann (49:14.318)
Oh, it's like 10%, maybe.

Larry Mann (49:22.222)
1%. Yeah.

Steve (49:26.113)
from non-salary base pay. Quite an indictment of the WNBA, hence the collective bargaining agreement that's going on now that should be fascinating to see what the players get out of this in their... You know, the world is changing before our eyes, Larry. As we come to kind of a full circle, March Madness a few weeks ahead, your boy's at UNC since I have an obligation.

Larry Mann (49:27.148)
Yeah, I know.

and then

Larry Mann (49:37.644)
Well, they finally got charter planes last year. It's terrible.

Steve (49:55.618)
because on your website, your bio is actually very little about your expertise and five delineated points about your passion, actually four about your passion for UNC and perhaps your disdain for anything Duke. So if you will, we see Florida taking it. How far does UNC go?

Larry Mann (50:11.458)
Right.

Larry Mann (50:17.41)
Well, I don't know. I unfortunately because it is a passion point for me. I watch almost every game. And so what I saw last night was something I have not seen in a very long time. They looked really good and they looked really, yeah, they were dominant. And I think it's interesting because, you know, North Carolina is used to being in the tournament. They're used to being a higher seed. And so what they've gone through this year, it just doesn't, I don't know what's going on, but.

Steve (50:28.749)
Yeah.

Larry Mann (50:43.918)
You know, we'll take it now. I don't know if they if they win one or two more games. I think it would be great. I know a lot of people hope they lose because a lot of people want to be proven right that they should have been in the tournament. But I but I will say and I know where you're probably going to go here, so I'm going to go ahead and say it. Having Duke be as good as they are this year is probably tougher than Carolina being as bad and you know people don't understand the bitter rivalry. I mean, there's very few Dukies in this business. I have unfortunately have to connect with a lot of them.

But it's hard because we love to beat Duke and in 2022 when we ended coach K's run, that was probably two of the best nights of my life and I have four kids. So I can't say that, you know, not only is Caroline not being good, but Duke is very good. And if you want to come back in three weeks and say, hey, why didn't you bring up Duke? Because you hate him. But Duke could very well be the team.

cutting down the nets and winning the national championship. It would not be something I would be happy to see, but they are well coached. They obviously Cooper flag. I we didn't touch on Cooper flag and his endorsement opportunities, but on the men's side, but what a great kid. mean, we say about Cooper flag, he hasn't been at Duke long enough to become hated. If he, God forbid, would stay another year, which, you know, hopefully that doesn't happen, but if he did, we probably would hate him.

But most of the Duke guys at Carolina, people hate it as the ones that stuck around for many years, the Christian Leydners and those guys. So it's a fun time of year. But it's interesting because I do have a passion for North Carolina and bringing it back to the business of sport. It's an example I use with my brand partners all the time is that the passion that we have for sport transcends and is such a huge part of what businesses and brands are doing in this space.

And if you're able to connect with brands in an authentic way that we try to do, then you're really tapping into those passions. it's exemplified by myself. I I speak to it all the time. It's just, you know, from a North Carolina basketball thing. And it is basketball. You know, we got the old Belichick thing. I mean, we don't care about that. I mean, I guess maybe, but it's all about basketball because that's really what we've been. so, but I do try to bring that to the business each day because it is a fun

Larry Mann (53:06.08)
It's a fun part, but it also brings out what really is important in this business.

Steve (53:11.597)
Larry, again, Larry Mann, Executive Vice President, Revolution, Global Sports Marketing Agency, he's been with them since 2002, was also with ESPN and Fox. Next time we'll get deeper into the world of women's sports, and as well as technology and AI and understanding how you are as you've matured through the industry and we're in their throes of perhaps one of the greatest revolutions that perhaps has faced mankind.

Larry Mann (53:28.771)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Steve (53:41.55)
For perhaps thousands of years, if you will, we are in the throes of it. It'll be interesting to talk to you about how you're guiding clients on the technology side and how to use this in effective fashion, again, tangible fashion that's going to help them navigate as well throughout the entire process of whether it's identifying that right optimal fit, how to maximize that, and then again, the measurement side. So again, what a pleasure it was to have you today on the Transaction Report Library.

Larry Mann (53:51.474)
Yeah

Larry Mann (54:11.918)
Thanks so much, Steve. I really appreciate us enjoying getting to know you and being on today and love to come back anytime.

Steve (54:19.435)
Wonderful. And you'll stay just one minute as Kristen comes back on. And thank you. It was a lot of fun. You're a fun guest.

Larry Mann (54:24.514)
Yeah, yeah, that was good.

Larry Mann (54:32.046)
I can talk about this stuff for hours, you guys. It's just like, it's, yeah, it's, it's a,

Steve (54:34.508)
I'm with you, Larry. So one time, we'll...