Steve (00:04.325)
You all set, Brent? Okay, here we go.

Brad Nierenberg (00:05.655)
All ready, let's go.

Steve (00:19.641)
Welcome to another edition of the Transaction Report. I'm your host, Steve Feuerstein. And a really unique, more nuanced conversation today we shall have with a guest who is really a veteran of the experiential marketing world. He founded his own company back in 1995, approximately, called Red Peg. I'm gonna leave it to you as a little bit of a suspense as to why you think this agency is called

Redpeg, I thoroughly enjoyed learning about the origin of its name, having been an avid, engaged Redpegger myself. So, which brought me a lot of joy. So with that said, CEO of Redpeg Marketing, Brad Nirenberg, welcome to the Transaction.

Brad Nierenberg (00:58.381)
Hehehehehe

Brad Nierenberg (01:05.986)
Thanks Steve, really great to be here. Thank you so much for having me.

Steve (01:10.757)
You know, when you look at the world in our space, particularly of entertainment marketing.

You know, the product itself in some way is so experiential. When you experience a sports event of any capacity, any caliber, and today one of the fastest growing markets of the business of sport actually is youth sports. You could then add onto that women's sports. can add onto that emerging new sports that are being, new leagues introduced routinely. But I've never thought about it. When you think about just on the base level,

an experience of going to a meaningful sports event as an entertainment experience. Help me unravel, if you will, let's just define how that is without all of the associated add-ons that one might do to maximize a relationship with that sports event, but just that spectator showing up for an experience. Is that?

kind of the origin of base experiential marketing moment.

Brad Nierenberg (02:24.6)
Steve, I love what you just led into and that true experience. I, when you said that, I thought it back about where did that start for me? And truly where I fell in love, learned marketing and fell in love with experiential at its core was when I was a beer rep on the streets of Washington, DC, switching people from Bud Light to Millelight. And I was called Millelight Brad back in those days because

Wherever I went, I was creating experiences on a one-to-one basis. was switching people and I created brand experiences with just a couple of tickets to give away or t-shirts. And I created engagement on a very base level. And that's truly where I saw how brands through experiences create this fandom, this followership. And it's all through these experiences that are created. So.

I learned it through one-to-one experiences and I always said to myself, this is where brands are adopted through these experiences, through consumers and the things that we create. And I always thought this would be most powerful, even though the digital marketing age was happening right in front of us. I always said, no matter whatever traditional marketing or digital marketing, this, what we're doing here is always going to be

the most powerful way to engage and create brand is through these experiences. you know, we started in the bars and then we now today we're in music and gaming and different forms of places where passions exist already and that we're sort of rolling the rock downhill in ways to engage these consumers that have self-elected these passion points, whether

sports teams or musicians or we just did a huge gaming event in New York for 75,000 people, people flying from all over the world to experience Pokemon Go. That's a whole story in itself, Steve, but just the power of competition and fandom and experiencing things together, I think is part of

Brad Nierenberg (04:51.832)
What I think when we talk about how brands can truly get the most out of any partnership is what is the passion that they're sharing and how do you create those unique experiences that the brand is making better for the participant? I think that we can go down the road of how brands are creating experiences beyond just the sporting event, but the hospitality and the experiences around that as well.

So.

Steve (05:22.202)
You know, I'm gonna jump in with one observation. Again, what I so enjoy about the transaction report is the free flowing exploration, which really yields insights in ways of something one may have been doing like your good self and myself for over three decades. And so when you think about it, in my background with experiential marketing, you said something so important.

Brad Nierenberg (05:24.92)
Sure.

Steve (05:49.819)
And I want to go back to that sports analogy, not even analogy, that sports example illustration. It is its own experiential, if you will, marketing moment because I'm entertained by the athletes. There's extraordinary competition that motivates me at the, at what I would call an expression of my true passion. I am absolutely being a motively,

heavily influenced in a very organic way. I'm watching and if I'm watching it, whatever it might be, a basketball game that's teetering from my team winning and losing every other moment. So it's a very emotive experience. And as I think about it, our goal in the sports marketing realm, entertainment marketing realm, you mentioned concerts, other forms of arts and entertainment was to use the

passionate experience, which is ultimately that event, that sports event, that concert, that art exhibit, know, Basel down in Miami, Art Basel. But then from that base experiential consumer expression of passion, build into it these quote unquote experiential moments with a brand.

that went above and beyond play on the court, play on the field, play on the course, where there might be some signage exposure, advertising exposure of a particular brand. And then maximize and try to reach as many of the target market who have come to attend that particular event with some type of experience, one very meaningful experience with quote unquote a brand and its specific representatives.

and hopefully that touch and experience with product. So you have a fertile base that then is maximized by that secondary build behind it. On the other hand, you also have a lot of events, experiential marketing events that are expressly only the events themselves. They are their own organic experience. In your assessment, what are the pros and cons of each?

Brad Nierenberg (08:10.862)
Well, I think that as brands, most recently, you're recognizing how powerful, you know, we can't communicate all in traditional means. So the in real life experience allows my brand to truly both engage and give because I think that many brands recognize that, look, if I want a consumer to truly consider my brand, we have to give to get, you have to engage and create some form of engagement. So.

I think them recognizing also that if my brand can have an event itself, that is a brand fest in a sense. I'm thinking about just the, if we go back to the days, Steve, you remember Camp Jeep, know, a truly brand fest and experience that brand created for its consumers. was a sheer, you know, I'm part of my brand. I'm driving a Jeep. This is who I am.

this and allowed the brand to truly roll the rock downhill with these consumers. Just create a reason for them to all be around each other and say, well, you love Jeep, I love Jeep, sharing experiences about Jeep. So you're creating an energy, I always think of like Adams Connect, know, bouncing off each other and creating energy about a brand is by brands that actually invest in

their consumer experience around their brand passions. Amazing. So I looked at that and obviously with the most recent event I was mentioning with, with GoFest, think brands are recognizing that it's not just the, the participation of sporting or events, but how do I create my own experience within those that are, that allow me to have my brand breathe, my brand engage, create.

Creator depth back in the day, see, you know, event marketing was how many people can we get through our tent, give away a premium, get them, you know, and, and, and touch and go now it's how long can I keep them in my experience? How long can I create conversation? Can I create a place where this opting in this brand is right for me. This brand is, is who I want to be around other people like this.

Brad Nierenberg (10:35.798)
I mean, back in the day with beer, was like what label, what brand is in your hand in a bar? You've got a green bottle that means something. So today, I think that the opportunity for brands to then create experiences just for their brand is great. It is, is, is a great momentum happening in the marketplace. You see branded experience like.

I think what Capital One did with the golf, the match, you think about just that sporting event, truly a brand event, I think is a great example of how both media companies recognizing that I need to create experiences for the brands that they can actually own is a big part of the future. And I think that as an experiential agency, we're getting asked.

Well, what if we created an event only for us? What would that look like? But where would we do that? How would we do it? What's the theme? What's the experience?

Steve (11:42.171)
But the event itself, just to be clear, the event itself, it, again, you can have a Red Bull sports event where they basically monolithically own it, right? But it's interesting, so the question becomes, let's get into the word experiential. So I understand that I'm watching, I'm an avid single track mountain biker.

Brad Nierenberg (11:53.422)
Great example. Great example. Great example.

Steve (12:08.226)
So I love hitting the rock and I get all suited up. So what's it called? Rampage, Red Bull Rampage. That's what it's called, the one in Utah every year, which is an incredible event, remarkable event. But my experience with it is very passive.

Brad Nierenberg (12:15.534)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah? Fantastic.

Steve (12:25.89)
I'm watching an event on TV. I'm getting absolutely viscerally stimulated. I am over the top impressed. I look at these guys and I recognize, you know, they're on death's door if they mess up. They do things that I would, I thought I was courageous, but I'm clearly not. And, and so when I look at that, my, I'm not a spectator. I'm not in Utah. I'm watching this online. What is, where is the experiential marketing engagement?

Brad Nierenberg (12:37.294)
Yeah.

Steve (12:55.928)
versus my experience as a TV viewer who happens to just truly value the content being served.

Brad Nierenberg (13:06.07)
I think it's a, if you ask me, where's the experience beyond the watching? You're saying where.

Steve (13:13.912)
What constitutes the experiential market? When does a passive spectator or, and actually I'm gonna include a spectator, even though they're not necessarily passive, it depends what sport you're engaged in, which you're engaged, because obviously if you're in a golf course, you could be both passive or active. But as a spectator, you can sit, even live spectator, can sit in one location, an entire sports event, and frankly, they had no impact.

except for their voice and expression as a fan, which can affect players at times. But at home, TV, I'm entirely passive. No one knows I exist as a viewer, but the ratings agency. So then my question is, what is the distinction? When does my love of the sport, consumption of the sport or concert or art event become experiential versus

my appreciation, I've been absolutely impacted emotionally. Is there a moment, a tipping point of what you at Red Peg would call definitively experiential? No, don't apologize. give it one sec. of course, of

Brad Nierenberg (14:24.206)
I apologize. I apologize. I apologize. Do you see if I can one second? I'm so sorry. Never happened, right? It never happens.

Steve (14:41.274)
But she heard me say about expressing one's voice.

Brad Nierenberg (14:46.478)
Hey, give me two sec. Give me two sec. guys.

Steve (14:49.688)
Sure. Take your time.

Steve (14:55.055)
You got it.

Right, how are we doing? Are we doing okay? Is it okay that he's not looking in the camera all the time?

Steve (15:06.508)
even though there's not a direct look in the camera.

Okay, you're okay with that. Content so far, are we okay? Are we giving enough or is it too?

Brad Nierenberg (15:19.118)
Sorry Steve, sorry about that. I'm glad we could, hey, this is what's good. Ryan, I appreciate you can cut that when needed. So.

Steve (15:20.714)
all good, all good, don't worry about it. Brad is my second job. I used to be on the air four hours a day, five days a week. And we don't get that privilege. This is a privilege. So I'm gonna just gonna end that last sentence again.

Brad Nierenberg (15:30.648)
Really?

Brad Nierenberg (15:36.95)
Okay, I'm sorry that just my schools, kids are back from school and friends play date is happening.

Steve (15:38.658)
Don't be sorry at all. have nothing to apologize for. All good. Thank you. Thank God. Thank God. So I'm going to pick up from where I was. I'm just going to give you that last sentence.

Steve (15:52.099)
Simply put, what is that fundamental tipping point between my quote unquote, what I'm defining as passive engagement? I'm viewing an event that's very important to me and resonates deeply in my DNA as an expression of what I value and where I reap so much joy and pain that it's worth it for me to maintain a relationship.

because of that constant sense of entertainment value versus what might be called experiential, even though I feel I'm having a deeply experiential moment. And by the way, that Red Bull that I referenced might be frankly from a physical signage point of view, from a graphic superimposition, from audio references, might be diplomatically very front and center where it's not overdone or underdone.

So I'm keenly aware Red Bull is the Paramount sponsor, in fact, probably the exclusive sponsor, but it's not, I'm engaging it passively. Is there a tipping point for which experiential marketing now defines itself?

Brad Nierenberg (16:57.71)
even more.

Brad Nierenberg (17:05.152)
It's a great question. And first of all, think about, I'm so glad you brought up Red Bull is such a leader in the content creation of when we talk about digital experiences and you're talking about how brands are connecting with consumers through this great content and building their brand. So your question was, when does it become experiential because you always

we're hearing, I want digital experiences. There's a ton of digital experiences. we always say experiential is when we are on a one-to-one basis, when we are engaging with them personally. mean, through COVID, obviously we were, had to go in a video realm, but it is truly on a one-to-one basis. it was when we're with the consumer,

We have an opportunity to be truly experiential. think, look, with technology today and where it's going, I think that we have to be open to the digital experience being always is always going to continue to grow. But I think that as a, I'll give you an example. We were, we've done a couple of drone light shows. I don't know if you've seen those, but videos are amazing. Videos are amazing, but seeing it live.

is like nothing else you'll ever see.

Steve (18:36.858)
Where's the experience of that? you're seeing, in other words, if I'm a drone, if I'm selling a drone as my end product, I can actually intellectually buy into the fact that that experience and explaining to me, not even explaining to me, via being visibly there, I'm physically there.

Brad Nierenberg (18:40.512)
seeing video.

Brad Nierenberg (18:45.868)
Yeah, jokes.

Brad Nierenberg (18:57.432)
Hmm?

Steve (18:59.222)
I understand that perhaps the messaging is, this is a $89 drone we're selling and look what you and your family can accomplish in your own neighborhood field.

Brad Nierenberg (19:04.941)
Yeah.

Brad Nierenberg (19:09.1)
No, I'm talking about the thousand light drone shit.

Steve (19:13.402)
I got you. Yeah, I love those. I'm saying that you as a drone salesman I could buy into the fact that there's something that could really That that was an experience enough for me to feel I have a relationship with your brand for me the experiential side You know in the old days like real old days To me probably one of the greatest examples walking into Bloomingdale's in Manhattan And if you have to get to the men's section, you got to walk through the women's perfumery area

And you have about 80 folk literally saying to you, and particularly if you're with a female, you know, would you like to try on today's latest and greatest from Gucci? And you're getting hit with every possible fragrance you can imagine, which I imagine the collection of them all would probably make a really good scent. when you and I walk into a supermarket and there's a food that or drink you and I are interested in.

Brad Nierenberg (19:51.47)
Very sure. Sure.

Brad Nierenberg (19:57.208)
Yes. Yes.

Steve (20:11.374)
And someone hands us a cup and says, this is the latest from, you name the soft drink that's healthy for prebiotic or probiotic. And we say, yeah, I want that. So I've taken it out of your hand or off your table. I've consumed it, which is the ultimate, right? The old days of how do we get the consumer to touch, feel, tactily my product? So I've ingested it. I've trusted you enough to put that into my

Brad Nierenberg (20:25.006)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Brad Nierenberg (20:29.795)
Yes.

Steve (20:39.994)
my biological system. So that is really experiential. Even though didn't our parents tell us, be careful what candy we take on Halloween, but we'll take it at the supermarket. so at the end, please. Sure.

Brad Nierenberg (20:42.38)
Hahaha!

You're in, you're in, it truly is.

Yes.

Brad Nierenberg (20:54.286)
Steve, I've got a funny story. Let me give you a story of when I, I think an interesting one. So back in my early days, and we can go back to when gaming was the arcade and my dad would give me a roll of quarters and I'd go play games. So let me tell you, I was always like, I loved the,

Steve (21:14.434)
You were clearly from a well-off family.

Brad Nierenberg (21:22.626)
the continuous improvement that you could do through the game. You understood that this was every time you had to go further in the game, just like a Pac-Man or whatever. And so I was always leaning into the gaming spaces. Wow, this is like an addictive, engaging experience, but digital. you're not, and as gaming allowed us to play with other people around the world, still digital, but still passion.

And personal, very personal experience, but connecting with others and around the world. And I, I always knew, said, this is going to be some place where, you know, Gamers are going to want to connect with others. There's, there's something there. There's something there. And until a friend of mine who ran a bar down in, in DC called me up one day and said, Brad, I know you're into the gaming thing. You know, I knew him through my mill. Like Dave says, you got to come down here. It's like.

I go, so what's going on? goes, well, this guy said to me, can you open up your bar on Saturday morning at like 10 o'clock and I'll fill the place. I said, I go, so he goes, well, I said, sure. He said, I said, what are you going to do? says, I'm just going to play a, a match that's going on in on the internet and I'm going to promote it to gamers. said, okay, so he goes, well, the bar is packed. It's 1130. We never have anybody in here. And there's a line down the street to get in.

And I go, all right, I'll be right down. Buzz right down there, walk in the place, packed with people like they're watching the Super Bowl. All of sudden the crowd erupts like it was an interception for a touchdown. And I turned to this woman and I said, what, what just happened? says, Huck just made his signature move. And I said, it's happened. The online experience now is offline, passionate people gathering together to share.

a moment together to get out of their houses, to go to some bar and interact with and be around people with their same passion is powerful. And that started as 15 years ago. We all know what gaming now is today and the experiences that are created for people to come together in the gaming space is truly incredible. And it is a sport.

Brad Nierenberg (23:41.934)
We all know it, but it is obviously the segmentation is so challenging because there's so many different games, but the passion is there. I, as we all know, and I know if you have kids see, but I've got four that are, let's just say that the games are getting better and the experience as technology continues to evolve and allow the gaming to be better because of the lack of latency and the depth of technology.

making it better, think is going to continue to be a very powerful piece of our space. But the point I was trying to make, long one coming around the corner, that it's about the experience, people coming together, allowing to share their passion, root, cheer, excitement around something that they love either doing or they did, is where experiences truly live.

Steve (24:34.49)
Quick, quick response, what's the distinction between experiential marketing moment and a VIP experience, VIP corporate hospitality?

Brad Nierenberg (24:43.096)
Living corporate, there's corporate hospitality that creates an experience. Whether you're doing just an entertainment to create a better relationship with your prospective customer, but it's around what is the passion point that hopefully that person wants to be. But the experiential is more on a consumer engagement or existing customer energy creation. But it is, I'd say more.

consumer, it's consumer facing versus, you know, business development, entertainment.

Steve (25:10.554)
Is there more bread?

Steve (25:15.13)
wouldn't it be more brand-centric? In other words, can you have a meaningful experiential marketing moment for a brand and the brand is not present?

Brad Nierenberg (25:27.662)
Well, if you're saying like in a hospitality suite or something like that.

Steve (25:32.058)
And there was the, for me, at least as I've always communicated, the brand has to be experienced in some capacity that...

Brad Nierenberg (25:34.03)
No, you got to have the brand there. It has to be there. Right. Even if you're in a hospitality suite, of course it's got to be choreographed. there's, mean, you think about what's going to happen in the world cup in a year from now, what type of hospitality and the experiences in those hospitality suites. don't think that you're gonna have just good food and drink and a great view. There's going to be, but what are we going to do when we're in the suite? What is the experience? What I need somebody that understands.

Steve (25:58.331)
100 percent.

Brad Nierenberg (26:02.68)
Truly that's gonna make it amazing for my guests. And what is the experience gonna be? What happens when the brand show up?

Steve (26:08.216)
And by the way, most effective sponsors, although our friend Casey Wasserman, the founder of one of the bigger sports marketing agencies, just announced this week Honda becoming a partner for, because they discontinued Honda, discontinued on a global level. So they're now on a national level working with Casey and his team from a US sponsorship standpoint.

You know, effective sponsors, when it's a quadrennial, they're doing experiential marketing years in advance of the actual event. So you have what's a fascinating part of dissecting the trifecta of experiential marketing when it's event related, event anchored, is the pre-event, the during event, and the post-event, which can have radically different types of experiential moments. With your good self, I read something in trying to learn more about your business and areas that, you know, I've also had the privilege of not,

Brad Nierenberg (26:47.619)
Mm-hmm.

Steve (27:03.61)
full-time professional, but using our sports events that we owned or athletes with whom we work, using those as, again, anchors to parlay the message for the brand and make it an experiential moment. What's really interesting, it's kind of a bit paradoxical, is that in this incredible tidal wave that's taken place in the last two and a half years since November 2022 with the announcement of ChatGBT 3.5 version,

We're starting to hear some in the industry opine that, you know what, while the digital and 3.0 is critical and the AR, augmented reality, virtual reality, now we're going to the metaverse with infinite reality, has now a $12 billion valuation. At the end of the day, there's again chatter. I don't know how authentic this comment is. It was written up in Ad Age by one of your cohorts in the industry.

And he said this as consumers grapple with ad fatigue and growing mistrust of digital platforms, brands are increasingly turning back to a classic marketing strategy, in-person activations or experiential marketing. This approach allows for direct, memorable interactions that foster lasting loyalty and align with the consumer desire for authenticity. Your take on that.

Brad Nierenberg (28:30.782)
I love it. I completely agree. I've said it many times that the digital fatigue that's going to be amplified and with AI is going to be just

at a rate that is going to quickly, you know, the erosion of trust and the white noise that is existing in the digital landscape and the marketing and media landscape. Like when we talked to a brand the other day, like who is watching the traditional ads? have to get engagement. whenever brands are saying, brands have been saying forever, I need to cut through the clutter.

I need to cut through the clutter. How do I cut through the clutter? What are the experience that can cut through? Where do I show up? How does my brand show up? And I think that what you just read is exactly, I believe it wholeheartedly. When the digital world exploded, mean, when it first started, said, well, digital is a great thing for us. It's going to amplify the experiences that we're creating.

Steve (29:21.946)
Hmm.

Brad Nierenberg (29:46.328)
think of digital marketing as an enemy of experiential. It's the best thing that's ever happened. Our experiences are the starting point of the content that's going to be shared. If it's good experience, then it's going to be amazing for any brand. So we have to have a plan for any one of our experiences that it has that amplification effect through digital means. But I think that there's that pendulum of, you

You're not gonna outspend. We have certain brands that cannot spend more. Just can't. We cannot spend more in this space. And recognizing that it truly to create those customer experiences or create consideration, so you gotta do it on a one-to-one basis, it's gonna be a lot more authentic. Authenticity is a very powerful word.

Steve (30:38.874)
You know, it's interesting in another source that I was reading and again, for my own edification for our own clients, you know, we build our main business sports biz is a software developer, AI, you know, infused really throughout the ecosystem, sports sponsorship, how to optimize, maximize and ultimately measure what you've just spent your money on.

and it's been a black box for my entire duration since 1990. What I learned that was so interesting is in the era of, again, media and the evolution of the celebrity endorser and then going more towards micro-influencers, there's a parallel in experiential marketing, which I think...

Brad Nierenberg (31:23.704)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Steve (31:30.474)
has I have no data behind this nor scientific, I have nothing scientific, it's just a, a heurist, just an opinion that while we saw the mass influencer, so the Rinaldos of the world that have a billion followers, more than eighth of the planet earth following Rinaldo, where we have seen this progression over the last, let's call it 15 years, 12 years to the, to the micro influencer. What's interesting in the experiential space,

Brad Nierenberg (31:42.176)
Sure, sure, Yep. Yep.

Steve (32:00.757)
is in some corridors, the recognition that I don't need a mass event that's going to force me to spend hundreds and hundreds of thousands, millions or tens of millions of dollars on a micro level, parallel to the micro influencer, I can have the micro experiential marketing moment. And through that,

by reaching and touching those critical paths strata of my target market and recognizing that they're not all created equal and that I can have these. And in fact, the quote was the next big thing is a lot of little things in experiential marketing.

Brad Nierenberg (32:44.898)
I would agree 100%. I think that when we talk about, talked about there's passion and followership of these iconic people. But I think that when you're truly going to make decisions about products, brands, automobiles, there's, there's a lot of decision-making that consumers go through. And I think that they're adopting from more localized influences. And I mean,

part of our experiences that we, when you're talking about the micro influencers and I'm thinking about programs that we've done that are small, very intimate events that are, we're utilizing micro influencers to amplify the experience to people that are more likely to, that are, that follow them are gonna be more authentic followership, that are gonna carry more weight because that person is like me, they live,

In the town near me and they have the same family size. And yes, that's what I need. whether it's an automobile or a, another product. I would agree that also our small, we're doing a lot of small events. I mean, for some very, very big brands that are very community based activations because. Hey, look, it costs, it's not going to cost as much. And you're going to get a lot of.

Steve (34:03.674)
Mmm.

Brad Nierenberg (34:13.87)
more authentic engagement. talk about food products at a farmer's market. Think about those smaller engagements that you have more duration of time and more opportunity to learn and feel the product brand, learn about the attributes. As opposed to any 30 second hit, you're going to have 15 to 20 minutes with these people. And it's powerful.

Steve (34:39.364)
So I'm gonna coin with you a new approach in experiential marketing to make our experiential, for the most part, more memorable. We're gonna coin and we're patent a new term called the MEM. It's just gonna be called the MEM to make it more memorable. It's gonna be called all cap MEMM and it's the micro experiential marketing movement. You ready?

Brad Nierenberg (34:42.627)
Go for it.

Brad Nierenberg (34:50.126)
Let's do it right now.

Brad Nierenberg (34:56.31)
Mem, we're gonna keep it short. Okay, Mem.

Brad Nierenberg (35:07.054)
like that.

Steve (35:08.29)
And I think if we go and sell this new strategic approach and experiential marketing, you can be making enormous amount of margin on the experience. It can be obviously very meaningful for the brand. And at the end of the day, this is where something I'll share with you are under the hood. And it really is painful to watch. And I've seen it for 35 years. And that is sponsors in sponsorship of, I'm speaking right now, professional sport. It can be...

Collegiate sport, I wouldn't go yet to the high school realm and the youth realm, I'm gonna exclude them for the moment. But it's where you have a brand and they could be the title sponsor, they could be an official partner, or it can be an event, as you know, many sports don't even have a title sponsor, they're all just quote unquote, what we call them today, partners of the league or the team. And here's the problem, when I get the chance, and I'll throw out a golf tournament example.

to invite Brad Nirenberg as my guest. One of our partners here was the former 15 year head of global sponsorship at MasterCard. He was also the head at Sprint Nextel. And I get the ability to invite you as MasterCard's guest at the Arnold Palmer Invitational presented by MasterCard. Or I'm an official partner of that event. So the names of it, I'm bringing you to the Arnold Palmer Invitational presented by MasterCard.

Brad Nierenberg (36:17.294)
Sure.

Brad Nierenberg (36:28.344)
Mm-hmm.

Steve (36:38.054)
Very often you see brands get so deeply excited that their VIP corporate tent, they're having an incredible experience with great spirits. Maybe a Havana roller came in to make them a great cojiba and everyone's very excited and it's very real, very authentic. And they're big, big VIPs. Let's call this a B2B brand. Big VIPs came and it was a wonderful day and it was lengthy.

was meaningful. Very often the brands don't realize that what we will call super VIPs can be invited to hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds of VIP corporate hospitality events a year. And they might be showing up at the MasterCard one week and then next week they might be up in Connecticut at the Travelers. And the week after that they might be at a NYX VIP corporate suite.

Brad Nierenberg (37:13.676)
Mm-hmm.

Steve (37:34.457)
And it goes on and on throughout their year. Might be political, community, arts and entertainment, opera. And by the end of the year, if you ask that super VIP, do you remember, and let's take the name out so it's not MasterCard, it was one of the official partners. Do you remember who invited you to that event? To the truest or to the master? Do you remember, do you really remember? There are a lot of folk that year in, year out, over time. It's just.

It's just blending seamlessly into another life experience for them. And it didn't turn into, again, the novelty that we as the novel sponsor, we sponsor one big event in sport. That might be the big, biggie of the year. And for us, it's very authentic. But very often that experiential side of not only on the VIP corporate hospitality, if they just leave it a VIP corporate hospitality, they've so short changed the brand.

For the most part, for the most part. Well, particularly when it's corporate hospitality involving food and beverage, right? It's not, you're out playing with Rory McElroy on the course for OAM. They got the photo, they had lunch with him. It was an extraordinary moment. And the autograph photo, great day with my good friend Brad, your new buddy Rory McElroy. It's interesting how often we can see brands get short change, spending inordinate amount of money behind it.

Brad Nierenberg (39:02.476)
Agreed? Agreed.

Steve (39:04.334)
Have you seen anything that you can find as an illustration of the do not do's in experiential marketing?

You see a competitor or other folk doing your business and you just say, man, that brand just got hoodwinked. It's a pity.

Brad Nierenberg (39:22.35)
I if you, think we connect those dots. think that we talk about making sure that the amount of money that you're spending against activation versus just the, the rights, if you're not, if you recognizing that look, and your business, Steve, you you've, you've, you're elevating the precision in which the valuations are, are, are decided, right? You're, you're,

elevating and you're getting a lot, you're utilizing technology to be a lot smarter. think that the same way that we talked a moment ago about volume of experiences, it's like, so how do you utilize those rights and create greater engagement at a much greater scale as opposed to the look talk about, you know, a client like, you know, giving away a suite at the, at this super bowl, at the game.

versus how many experiences can you create across a partnership with the NFL? How vast, how many more cities and games and communities you can engage with, I think is where I think most brands are saying, it's not the one big PR sign up to win two tickets. mean, if you're not using your rights to create

a tremendous amount of experiences at a much more attainable level. And I think you're seeing this in the loyalty space tremendously across the board. It's like, it's not about letting the same people win and cash in millions of points. It's about creating both aspirational experiences that are not truly always attainable, but making them

accessible through a much larger swath of the community of their point holders. So if you, if I was to say it's not a democratization of the assets, but instead of a partner, a brand saying, need, know, two 50, uh, I need the one thing for two people. It's like, how do I create much more accessibility?

Brad Nierenberg (41:48.426)
aspirational accessibility for a much larger swath of people. Because if we recognize that each experience is going to create social media posts and content and recognizing that these assets are our marketing, I always say, are we marketing our marketing? Are we truly allowing our experience be the marketing of not obviously what Redpeg does, but for our clients experience.

and let their best fans or the best customers rave about them. A couple of our clients do this on a regular basis. We create experiences for their top 40, 50 customers in each market and creating experiences for them to be together. And then showing what this level of experience could be like for and having, look, so many times I think brands are

Don't recognize that your best customers are your best marketers and gathering them together to create these micro when you talk to a micro fest, talk about Pokemon Go Fest with 75,000 people talking about 40, 50 people getting together about your brand, but that your brand hosts an experience that creates value. see a lot of wealth management firms create these types of experience that get, get my people together, bring in a thought leader, create an experience and allow them to all share how great.

our services are. You do that with any.

Steve (43:17.588)
I like how you said marketing the marketing, which immediately I had an internal presentation to our team in the engineering side, data science side, And my presentation was on the death of Google Search. I'm curious, from pre-Gemini and pre-Claude and pre-Chachi PT, Lama, et cetera, DeepSeek,

Now with Google, when you and I ask a question to Google in a traditional search bar, all of a sudden people may not even realize they are being served the AI response. It's being formatted completely differently. Above the fold, you're not seeing any link.

Brad Nierenberg (44:04.067)
Right?

Steve (44:06.968)
What has that done from your standpoint of driving traffic to ultimate destinations that were so important to you that from an SEO maximization standpoint, you guys, let's say, to a plum, were to the tee of perfection that now overnight, literally within the, think the first article I read about it was 12 months ago that someone was prescient enough to say the death of Google search is coming. And I think now in today's world, Bane,

and Co just came out with an article this week, McKinsey, I mean, it's pervasive. You can't not experience it. In your world, what changes internally working for a client to make sure they get noticed and the experiential marketing events become, that they're aware, people are aware they're there. And one method of that is through the search engine. What has changed on your world so far?

Brad Nierenberg (44:38.232)
Yeah.

Brad Nierenberg (44:57.42)
Well, I can say it's...

Our approach is first of all, communicate. think we're hearing from the client more so than ever. They recognize that organic content creation is the most powerful tool and the best results that they can be creating. They're like the algorithms are changed, changed dramatically. Organic search, organic content creation is the most powerful and it's going to be going forward. So brands that invest in those experiences that are

that allow the customer to pick up their phone and share their experience is the most powerful endorsement. We talk about our best marketers are our customers. It let you go back to the very basic that article or the statement that one of my colleagues might've written is like, look, the very basic of consumer marketing is this one-to-one experience. Well, that consumer still has a phone and they're going to be sharing. If you create a great experience,

The endorsement is giving exponentially more valuable. And so I say that every one of our best customers are our best marketers got to invest in them to get that experience and their endorsement. So I would just say that brands are doubling down. We recognize that every, every event that we do, we're like, where's the

Iconic image or where's that iconic moment that everybody's gonna pick up their phones and share it. So are we cultivating those? Experiences moments. I look step and repeats have been around forever. There are the The giving people a moment to share or place to share and being part of the facilitation What is that iconic moment that everybody's gonna pick up their phone? You have to create

Steve (46:54.49)
So here, let's go to just in this.

Steve (47:02.17)
final part of our exploration. When you look at really, and I always say, if we can't do it today, we will be doing it tomorrow. And it's tomorrow, three, six, nine months down the line, 12, 18. I'm not concerned about that. In other words, if there's a certain implementation in AI that we know is coming under the hood that we can deploy.

We do a lot of computer vision as one element of our, we built our own computer vision model. We believe we have the most agnostic assessment tool in the business, what we call our deep score, maybe eight, nine variable model, nonlinear model in one aspects of the match, maximize and measurement experience of sports marketing, sponsorship specifically. But if you just look in experiential marketing, there's no question we're going into the era of experiential AI.

Brad Nierenberg (47:32.259)
Mm-hmm.

Steve (47:53.145)
And so experiential marketing, I yesterday with folk about if up until 2015, you know, it was the era of your home theater, you know, which started back in the eighties. Everyone was very excited to in the living room, if you had a living room or excuse me, in the basement of one's home, I guess living room too, you created your own home theater. In the early era, it was actually basement for those who had homes and it evolved into the living room for many.

Brad Nierenberg (48:17.602)
Yes.

Steve (48:23.214)
And it was home theater builds. And that was kind of a sign of, you know, I have a high quality of life and someone built their own home theater. And I said to my colleagues yesterday, we're going to go into an era of the, your own home arena where you're going to be able to experience your sport of interest and literally experience it as if you were at the stadium with your friends sitting next to you as if they were at the stadium. Let's think about experiential marketing. We are now creeping eerily close.

Brad Nierenberg (48:25.986)
Made it.

Steve (48:52.932)
to physiological responses, edge wear, that people are be able to physically wear and experience, set aside Google glasses, I'm talking about having physical taste and bodily reactions to experiential marketing events that are not, where I do not have to travel there, but I can experience it from my own home or whatever terrain, domain I want it to be.

And whether it's from a moment to moment engagement, from a sentiment physiologically, we know personalization ultimately is the pathway when we summarize it from my vantage point, what is the holy grail? It's the personalized experience within the collective. And therefore going back to your point, what is everyone getting on the phone about?

It's about their own personalized, unique, anecdotal experience that doesn't necessarily Steve's replicate Brad's experience, although we experienced the same marketing overture from an experiential marketing standpoint. Your take on that.

Brad Nierenberg (50:02.734)
Well, I think when you were explaining that experience, I think that we've all seen the video of those new, I think it was a restaurant or bar with this incredible screen in front of you and that they're experiencing it like they're in the end zone of a game or like, so, and I'm saying, okay, you're taking that to the next step of that whole experience and that screen is gonna be available for people at their homes. It's gonna happen relatively quickly. think that still.

Steve (50:17.519)
Ciao.

Brad Nierenberg (50:30.36)
If you asked anybody that was at the Indiana Pacers game last night, that experience.

Was yes, do we get goosebumps at home? Sure. That moment, that tension, but being there is that is nothing like being there. There's nothing that can replicate. I know what you're saying, but there's that there is something that is so powerful, just like being at a concert that you feel what the artist is.

being in front of you is still always gonna be powerful. think that we are going to, yes, technology is gonna make it as close as possible to being there. I think the glasses are amazing. say, know, we work with Metta and it's truly amazing and incredible. And I think that it's gonna only, as we know, technologies continue to get better. But I think that as technology continues to get better, there's gonna be a thirst and a

a passion to truly experience it. was talking to somebody about how AI is create, you can create a photo. If you want to be next to LeBron James, 10 seconds, I'll have a photo of me standing next to LeBron James. But if you can truly have a picture with you and LeBron James, the real is always going to be so much more valuable and real. This whole moment of fake AI is going to, is going to continue to explode.

But the real thing is truly what's going to be valuable.

Steve (52:14.01)
So here's the beauty of it all. And in some ways it's a bit Talmudic and that is like the SAT question, always choose all the above. That's I think the default. The answer is yes and yes. And the answer is for hyper, for really what I think is ultimately the most hyper contextual storytelling on a personalized level, you're going to see that the pie just got a lot bigger. See, that's the beauty of the world in which you operate in my opinion.

that you're operating in a world that just got accretive. Your universe of what was the potential audience we could serve, in my opinion, is going to go exponentially, exponentially beyond anything you could imagine, because through the AI experiential and through some of the usages of what's gonna give us that Dolby moment where I'm shaking, my body is shaking, but I'm not at the event, or the hologram of LeBron literally in my...

home arena talking to me. And it's not fake AI. It's not fake. It is just empowering him to have his digital twin appear anywhere and everywhere and have that interaction with me verbally. While it's not the biological LeBron, it is truly LeBron that is replicating the biological LeBron, giving me this incredible experience. It's highly personalized. And so I do think

That's a little bit more fringe because yes, it is not LeBron and LeBron doesn't know he just did that with Steve and Brad. The beauty of your world is that in this hyper contextual storytelling where I can truly, I know what you do. I have studied your behavior online. I'm very keenly aware of your passions. I might have your LinkedIn profile, which I understand what's important to you. And by the way, a guest of ours,

Brad Nierenberg (53:48.974)
Right.

Steve (54:13.21)
was one of the leading experts on algorithms. And it was fascinating. She said, when you get to, I remember the number and don't hold me to it, God, Sandra, she's written books on this. Give me a moment. Mind Masters was her book. She was for Cambridge Analytica, the leading expert to go under the hood of what happened at the time at Facebook before it was Metta. She was the leader.

Brad Nierenberg (54:33.272)
Okay.

Steve (54:41.902)
She's presently at Columbia, runs one of their big centers, very deep into consumer behavior and the online algorithmic ownership of behavior, controlling behavior through algorithms. And one of the beauties of this is that the personalization, the ability that I understand that if I read, I think it was 11 of your Facebook posts.

I knew you as well as one of your closest friends. It's insanity, the numbers. She has a chart in her book that goes up to, at 150 Facebook posts, I know you as well as your spouse. This is what she represents. She's one of the foremost experts in the world. I'm not questioning, it 149, 151? But I will tell you, it is one of the most fascinating insights that as you get to know the online behavior of someone very dear to you,

Brad Nierenberg (55:29.678)
Sure, sure.

Steve (55:39.865)
By the way, they said for your colleague at work, it's like three to five Facebook posts. Just to show you how, how hands-off, or how distant we are, how many barriers we put, firewalls. And we have our business persona, and that is consistent in a certain way. But once you get to like three, four, five Facebook posts, the folk at work don't even have a clue about Brad.

Brad Nierenberg (55:44.359)
Hahaha!

Brad Nierenberg (55:53.858)
Mm.

Steve (56:08.484)
So I agree with you. think it's neither, it's not mutually exclusive. We're in an era where again, skilled folk like you who were, let's just say you at a very young age were an entrepreneur. You when I was a seven year old, I'm shoveling driveways when it was snowing. selling, my parents used pencils to my neighbors. And like you, where you were schooled by Michael O'Hara at Champions, and you learned something that I appreciated deeply.

Brad Nierenberg (56:25.07)
Yeah. Yeah.

Brad Nierenberg (56:34.168)
Wow.

Steve (56:40.186)
that it didn't matter what night you did an event at your bar in Washington, DC at Champions. There was no such thing as a bad night. And by the way, in New York City, before I went to spend my 13 years in the Far East in 1989, we had a company, three of my best friends had something called Urban Nights with a K Productions. And we opened up big, big clubs in New York City. And we had...

a gazillion people come. And for us, we made a lot of money, what we call a lot of money. And it was so much fun. And people came, it was phenomenal. But Michael taught you that there are no bad, don't blame it on the night, Brad. It was just a bad event. And I love that. Because it's so easy to shirk responsibility for something you believed would work and then it didn't. So it must have been the night.

Brad Nierenberg (57:21.71)
Yeah.

Steve (57:34.511)
You know, because you know if you brought LeBron to that bar in Washington, the place would have been filled to any athlete of note that had national distribution. They've been blocks and blocks and blocks of folk waiting online. Or had you brought John Thompson, who at the time was the coach of Georgetown basketball, you would have had a gangbuster event. So it wasn't the night, says Michael O'Hara, who started you off in the field. Yeah. Yeah.

Brad Nierenberg (57:55.668)
Exactly. Right. He's so I love it. Great. You brought that up. I totally love it. Love it and see if great. Yeah.

Steve (58:06.387)
So become more personalized before more respectful of not what I value as the brand owner and thinking what will attract others. I know and I have the data science behind it and I will reach them in an authentic way that could never be done before through AI in a targeted way that I reach Brad so differently than Steve and yet we both experience and came to that same personal.

interactive moments.

Brad Nierenberg (58:36.078)
Great stuff, Steve. I love it. Love it, I want to hear more stories about the bars in New York, man. It's great. It's great. Awesome.

Steve (58:38.802)
right back at you. Right back at you. I know your true passion, Brad. There it is. And once you've done it, although you are certainly far more versed in it than I, but I will tell you, we still get together, best friends of mine. I met them when I was six. So 56 years ago we met. We're still best friends from Scarsdale, New York. And I will tell you,

Brad Nierenberg (59:03.982)
Fantastic.

Steve (59:07.332)
that those moments that sometimes when we're out together and we reflect on urban nights, productions, events, we have just the greatest smiles of the greatest memories of bringing people together for some incredibly value added moments. with that said, you continue to make a career running a very successful business at Red Peg. And by the way, we started off, we have to conclude. And I loved when I read it, but Red Peg, there you go, give it to us.

Brad Nierenberg (59:33.482)
It's from the game Battleship targeted marketing. Red pegs are direct hits, right place, right time, right experience. White pegs are more traditional trying to reach everybody blanketing, laying the blanket over the, over the field. It's you got to the right people at the right time. The that are most interesting, your most likely source of business experience marketing allows you to be a lot more targeted. So that's where it came from. And I grew up in Briarcliff by the way, Yeah.

Steve (01:00:02.011)
So I need one thing as I thought about it and I'm going back it's got to be 50 years when I remember the commercials for that battleship game and the kid would put the final red peg on his side of the screen of the ocean where his different ships were placed and he would scream out and say, you sunk my battleship. So I was thinking from red peg I don't want that as your slogan. So what's

What's the empowering that Red Peg tells its client when all pegs are placed appropriately?

Brad Nierenberg (01:00:35.79)
Well, it's a direct hit. It is truly a direct hit. It's like, and we, it's all those pieces of the experience coming together to have people leaving, feeling something about the brand that was going to move them to action, whether sharing with others, purchase, adoption. That's what the experience is all that we gear all of our events for.

Steve (01:01:01.882)
like yours better. Yours is a win-win. I lost the game. You sunk my battleship. Yours is direct hit. You and your client nailed it and knew that this experiential marketing really delivered for them and on the measurement side proved to be effective for them. So great, Brad. Listen, his name is Brad Nirenberg. He's the CEO of Red Ped Marketing. Another time we'll go deep, deep into the world of measurement.

Brad Nierenberg (01:01:04.044)
Yeah.

Steve (01:01:31.258)
I didn't do it today. was on my agenda. was the one thing that I would have liked to have done further with you. But we'll do it again sometime. And we'll get into really the real world of authentic measurement. And how do we go back to a client and say, was a direct hit. What constitutes that direct hit? And we'll do a part two together. So again, Brad, thank you for you and your team at Red Pack Marketing, again, the CEO and founder in 1995. Thanks for joining us.

Brad Nierenberg (01:01:35.182)
I would love that.

Brad Nierenberg (01:01:41.816)
Yes.

Brad Nierenberg (01:01:52.44)
Thanks, Steve.

Steve (01:02:00.863)
on the transaction report today.

Brad Nierenberg (01:02:02.094)
Thanks so much for having me, Steve. Enjoyed it a lot. Look forward to staying in touch.

Steve (01:02:07.963)
And we're gonna hold you for one.